Measures for the degeneracy from protons?Are white dwarf stars supported by proton degeneracy as well?Electron Degeneracy Pressure and the Pauli Exclusion PrincipleHow could a neutron star collapse into a black hole?Why does the Chandrasekhar limit affect white dwarfs differently?What would happen to a gas planet if its core mass goes beyond the Chandrasekhar limit?Why is the core of a gas giant supported by electron degeneracy pressure instead of nuclear fusion?Are white dwarf stars supported by proton degeneracy as well?What is the condition for the number density of a gas to be ultra-relativistic or non-relativistic and degenerate or idealCentral temperature of a stellar model with combination of gas and degeneracyCan the Dark Energy be Pauli pressure?

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Measures for the degeneracy from protons?


Are white dwarf stars supported by proton degeneracy as well?Electron Degeneracy Pressure and the Pauli Exclusion PrincipleHow could a neutron star collapse into a black hole?Why does the Chandrasekhar limit affect white dwarfs differently?What would happen to a gas planet if its core mass goes beyond the Chandrasekhar limit?Why is the core of a gas giant supported by electron degeneracy pressure instead of nuclear fusion?Are white dwarf stars supported by proton degeneracy as well?What is the condition for the number density of a gas to be ultra-relativistic or non-relativistic and degenerate or idealCentral temperature of a stellar model with combination of gas and degeneracyCan the Dark Energy be Pauli pressure?













6












$begingroup$


Come to think of it, the only things we hear about degeneracy is neutron and electron.

I made a generalization:




  • White Dwarf: Supported by electron degeneracy.


  • Neutron Star: Supported by neutron degeneracy and nuclear forces, and sometimes centrifugal force.


  • Quark Star: Most likely supported by quark degeneracy.

Now, we can see that there is no mention of proton degeneracy.



A quick search lead to the Wikipedia subsection Degenerate matter; Proton degeneracy, and the answer that yes, there is proton degeneracy, but is much less effective than other forms of degenerate matter.



My question: What is the force exerted by degenerate protons, and what equation is it modeled by?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate of Are white dwarf stars supported by proton degeneracy as well?
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    Mar 29 at 5:55






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Not a duplicate, since that question, and my answer, are restricted to white dwarfs.
    $endgroup$
    – Rob Jeffries
    Mar 29 at 10:36










  • $begingroup$
    @RobJeffries Ah, ok. I figured it was a reasonable match, but I'm glad you've written a specific answer for this new question.
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    Mar 29 at 15:31






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Max0815 looks good, thanks! I've adjusted the format a bit and taken out the non-essential bits. I don't think there's any chance of it being closed as duplicate now.
    $endgroup$
    – uhoh
    Mar 29 at 22:15







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @uhoh thank you very much! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 22:27















6












$begingroup$


Come to think of it, the only things we hear about degeneracy is neutron and electron.

I made a generalization:




  • White Dwarf: Supported by electron degeneracy.


  • Neutron Star: Supported by neutron degeneracy and nuclear forces, and sometimes centrifugal force.


  • Quark Star: Most likely supported by quark degeneracy.

Now, we can see that there is no mention of proton degeneracy.



A quick search lead to the Wikipedia subsection Degenerate matter; Proton degeneracy, and the answer that yes, there is proton degeneracy, but is much less effective than other forms of degenerate matter.



My question: What is the force exerted by degenerate protons, and what equation is it modeled by?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate of Are white dwarf stars supported by proton degeneracy as well?
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    Mar 29 at 5:55






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Not a duplicate, since that question, and my answer, are restricted to white dwarfs.
    $endgroup$
    – Rob Jeffries
    Mar 29 at 10:36










  • $begingroup$
    @RobJeffries Ah, ok. I figured it was a reasonable match, but I'm glad you've written a specific answer for this new question.
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    Mar 29 at 15:31






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Max0815 looks good, thanks! I've adjusted the format a bit and taken out the non-essential bits. I don't think there's any chance of it being closed as duplicate now.
    $endgroup$
    – uhoh
    Mar 29 at 22:15







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @uhoh thank you very much! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 22:27













6












6








6





$begingroup$


Come to think of it, the only things we hear about degeneracy is neutron and electron.

I made a generalization:




  • White Dwarf: Supported by electron degeneracy.


  • Neutron Star: Supported by neutron degeneracy and nuclear forces, and sometimes centrifugal force.


  • Quark Star: Most likely supported by quark degeneracy.

Now, we can see that there is no mention of proton degeneracy.



A quick search lead to the Wikipedia subsection Degenerate matter; Proton degeneracy, and the answer that yes, there is proton degeneracy, but is much less effective than other forms of degenerate matter.



My question: What is the force exerted by degenerate protons, and what equation is it modeled by?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




Come to think of it, the only things we hear about degeneracy is neutron and electron.

I made a generalization:




  • White Dwarf: Supported by electron degeneracy.


  • Neutron Star: Supported by neutron degeneracy and nuclear forces, and sometimes centrifugal force.


  • Quark Star: Most likely supported by quark degeneracy.

Now, we can see that there is no mention of proton degeneracy.



A quick search lead to the Wikipedia subsection Degenerate matter; Proton degeneracy, and the answer that yes, there is proton degeneracy, but is much less effective than other forms of degenerate matter.



My question: What is the force exerted by degenerate protons, and what equation is it modeled by?







degenerate-matter proton






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Mar 29 at 22:14









uhoh

6,96022173




6,96022173










asked Mar 29 at 3:54









Max0815Max0815

986222




986222







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate of Are white dwarf stars supported by proton degeneracy as well?
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    Mar 29 at 5:55






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Not a duplicate, since that question, and my answer, are restricted to white dwarfs.
    $endgroup$
    – Rob Jeffries
    Mar 29 at 10:36










  • $begingroup$
    @RobJeffries Ah, ok. I figured it was a reasonable match, but I'm glad you've written a specific answer for this new question.
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    Mar 29 at 15:31






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Max0815 looks good, thanks! I've adjusted the format a bit and taken out the non-essential bits. I don't think there's any chance of it being closed as duplicate now.
    $endgroup$
    – uhoh
    Mar 29 at 22:15







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @uhoh thank you very much! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 22:27












  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate of Are white dwarf stars supported by proton degeneracy as well?
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    Mar 29 at 5:55






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Not a duplicate, since that question, and my answer, are restricted to white dwarfs.
    $endgroup$
    – Rob Jeffries
    Mar 29 at 10:36










  • $begingroup$
    @RobJeffries Ah, ok. I figured it was a reasonable match, but I'm glad you've written a specific answer for this new question.
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    Mar 29 at 15:31






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Max0815 looks good, thanks! I've adjusted the format a bit and taken out the non-essential bits. I don't think there's any chance of it being closed as duplicate now.
    $endgroup$
    – uhoh
    Mar 29 at 22:15







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @uhoh thank you very much! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 22:27







4




4




$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Are white dwarf stars supported by proton degeneracy as well?
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
Mar 29 at 5:55




$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Are white dwarf stars supported by proton degeneracy as well?
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
Mar 29 at 5:55




3




3




$begingroup$
Not a duplicate, since that question, and my answer, are restricted to white dwarfs.
$endgroup$
– Rob Jeffries
Mar 29 at 10:36




$begingroup$
Not a duplicate, since that question, and my answer, are restricted to white dwarfs.
$endgroup$
– Rob Jeffries
Mar 29 at 10:36












$begingroup$
@RobJeffries Ah, ok. I figured it was a reasonable match, but I'm glad you've written a specific answer for this new question.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
Mar 29 at 15:31




$begingroup$
@RobJeffries Ah, ok. I figured it was a reasonable match, but I'm glad you've written a specific answer for this new question.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
Mar 29 at 15:31




1




1




$begingroup$
@Max0815 looks good, thanks! I've adjusted the format a bit and taken out the non-essential bits. I don't think there's any chance of it being closed as duplicate now.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 29 at 22:15





$begingroup$
@Max0815 looks good, thanks! I've adjusted the format a bit and taken out the non-essential bits. I don't think there's any chance of it being closed as duplicate now.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Mar 29 at 22:15





1




1




$begingroup$
@uhoh thank you very much! :)
$endgroup$
– Max0815
Mar 29 at 22:27




$begingroup$
@uhoh thank you very much! :)
$endgroup$
– Max0815
Mar 29 at 22:27










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















10












$begingroup$

Stars are electrically neutral. In the optimal case for proton degeneracy, a star is made of hydrogen, maximising the proton number density. The number density of electrons is exactly the same.



Since the Fermi momentum $p_F$ of a species is dependent only on number density$^1$, the Fermi momentum of the electrons and protons are the same. Pressure however$^1$, is an increasing function of $p_F/mc$ and since the mass of an electron is 1800 times smaller, the electron degeneracy pressure is always much higher than the proton degeneracy pressure.



Degenerate protons do exist. They form of order 1% of the density in the neutron fluid region (the bulk) of a neutron star. However, they contribute much less than a thousandth of the pressure and always lower than the degenerate electron pressure.



Actually, the form of the pressure equation (see below) does actually admit the possibility that the degeneracy pressures of electrons and protons become more similar as $p_F/mc gg 1$ (aka ultra-relativistic). But by that time, the energies of the electrons and protons are easily sufficient to create neutrons and an equilibrium is set up so that neutrons always outnumber the protons by at at least 8:1 and therefore their degeneracy pressure will dominate.



(1) For those interested: The Fermi momentum is
$$p_F = left(frac38piright)^1/3 h n^1/3 ,$$
where $n$ is the number density of fermions.



Whilst ideal fermion degeneracy pressure is given by
$$P = fracpi m^4 c^53 h^3 left[x (2x^2 -3)(1 + x^2)^1/2 + 3
sinh^-1(x) right] , $$

where $x = p_F/mc$.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you very much!!!! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 19:21


















2












$begingroup$

Another way to think of the answer is that the pressure of any nonrelativistic gas (degenerate or ideal) is always 2/3 the kinetic energy per unit volume. So we can say that when the electrons go degenerate, and contribute almost all of the pressure, it must be because they also contain almost all of the kinetic energy. This is true, the reason they contribute most of the pressure is because they hold most of the kinetic energy, but we can then ask, why do they contain most of the kinetic energy?



Framing the question this way focuses our attention on what really matters here: the thermodynamics of degeneracy. A purely degenerate gas has zero temperature, that is what degeneracy means in the thermodynamic sense. However, the kinetic energy is quite large. So it is this thermodynamic disconnect between the kinetic energy and the temperature that is the cause of the importance of the electron pressure. Since we can assume the electrons and protons equilibrate to the same temperature (that assumption is always in place when you see these kinds of analyses), the protons must also have essentially zero temperature when the electrons are highly degenerate. But protons are not degenerate, due to their higher mass (as explained above), so if they have low temperature, they also have low kinetic energy. It's due to their different thermodynamic connection between kinetic energy and temperature (which is more like an ideal gas rather than a degenerate one).



Put this way, we see what degeneracy is doing-- it is causing the electrons to hog all the kinetic energy, because degenerate electrons have a very high ratio of kinetic energy to kT, whereas protons have a more classical such ratio. That's why they produce the pressure, it's all about kinetic energy. You don't need to think about any weird forces, you only need the quantum mechanical thermodynamics, which drives the temperature of electrons down, relative to their kinetic energy, owing to the fact that degenerate electrons are very stingy about giving up heat (and temperature is the statement of which objects will give up heat in equilibrium, as per the zeroth law of thermodynamics).






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Interesting. However, doesn't really answer my question. Still, +1.
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 22:28







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Thanks. The direct answer to your question is there is no force of either electron degeneracy or proton degeneracy. Degeneracy is not a force-- it is a thermodynamic effect that alters the partitioning of kinetic energy between electrons and protons, and also among the electrons. The electrons dominate the pressure because the thermodynamics says they get almost all the kinetic energy.
    $endgroup$
    – Ken G
    Mar 30 at 2:45











Your Answer





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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









10












$begingroup$

Stars are electrically neutral. In the optimal case for proton degeneracy, a star is made of hydrogen, maximising the proton number density. The number density of electrons is exactly the same.



Since the Fermi momentum $p_F$ of a species is dependent only on number density$^1$, the Fermi momentum of the electrons and protons are the same. Pressure however$^1$, is an increasing function of $p_F/mc$ and since the mass of an electron is 1800 times smaller, the electron degeneracy pressure is always much higher than the proton degeneracy pressure.



Degenerate protons do exist. They form of order 1% of the density in the neutron fluid region (the bulk) of a neutron star. However, they contribute much less than a thousandth of the pressure and always lower than the degenerate electron pressure.



Actually, the form of the pressure equation (see below) does actually admit the possibility that the degeneracy pressures of electrons and protons become more similar as $p_F/mc gg 1$ (aka ultra-relativistic). But by that time, the energies of the electrons and protons are easily sufficient to create neutrons and an equilibrium is set up so that neutrons always outnumber the protons by at at least 8:1 and therefore their degeneracy pressure will dominate.



(1) For those interested: The Fermi momentum is
$$p_F = left(frac38piright)^1/3 h n^1/3 ,$$
where $n$ is the number density of fermions.



Whilst ideal fermion degeneracy pressure is given by
$$P = fracpi m^4 c^53 h^3 left[x (2x^2 -3)(1 + x^2)^1/2 + 3
sinh^-1(x) right] , $$

where $x = p_F/mc$.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you very much!!!! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 19:21















10












$begingroup$

Stars are electrically neutral. In the optimal case for proton degeneracy, a star is made of hydrogen, maximising the proton number density. The number density of electrons is exactly the same.



Since the Fermi momentum $p_F$ of a species is dependent only on number density$^1$, the Fermi momentum of the electrons and protons are the same. Pressure however$^1$, is an increasing function of $p_F/mc$ and since the mass of an electron is 1800 times smaller, the electron degeneracy pressure is always much higher than the proton degeneracy pressure.



Degenerate protons do exist. They form of order 1% of the density in the neutron fluid region (the bulk) of a neutron star. However, they contribute much less than a thousandth of the pressure and always lower than the degenerate electron pressure.



Actually, the form of the pressure equation (see below) does actually admit the possibility that the degeneracy pressures of electrons and protons become more similar as $p_F/mc gg 1$ (aka ultra-relativistic). But by that time, the energies of the electrons and protons are easily sufficient to create neutrons and an equilibrium is set up so that neutrons always outnumber the protons by at at least 8:1 and therefore their degeneracy pressure will dominate.



(1) For those interested: The Fermi momentum is
$$p_F = left(frac38piright)^1/3 h n^1/3 ,$$
where $n$ is the number density of fermions.



Whilst ideal fermion degeneracy pressure is given by
$$P = fracpi m^4 c^53 h^3 left[x (2x^2 -3)(1 + x^2)^1/2 + 3
sinh^-1(x) right] , $$

where $x = p_F/mc$.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you very much!!!! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 19:21













10












10








10





$begingroup$

Stars are electrically neutral. In the optimal case for proton degeneracy, a star is made of hydrogen, maximising the proton number density. The number density of electrons is exactly the same.



Since the Fermi momentum $p_F$ of a species is dependent only on number density$^1$, the Fermi momentum of the electrons and protons are the same. Pressure however$^1$, is an increasing function of $p_F/mc$ and since the mass of an electron is 1800 times smaller, the electron degeneracy pressure is always much higher than the proton degeneracy pressure.



Degenerate protons do exist. They form of order 1% of the density in the neutron fluid region (the bulk) of a neutron star. However, they contribute much less than a thousandth of the pressure and always lower than the degenerate electron pressure.



Actually, the form of the pressure equation (see below) does actually admit the possibility that the degeneracy pressures of electrons and protons become more similar as $p_F/mc gg 1$ (aka ultra-relativistic). But by that time, the energies of the electrons and protons are easily sufficient to create neutrons and an equilibrium is set up so that neutrons always outnumber the protons by at at least 8:1 and therefore their degeneracy pressure will dominate.



(1) For those interested: The Fermi momentum is
$$p_F = left(frac38piright)^1/3 h n^1/3 ,$$
where $n$ is the number density of fermions.



Whilst ideal fermion degeneracy pressure is given by
$$P = fracpi m^4 c^53 h^3 left[x (2x^2 -3)(1 + x^2)^1/2 + 3
sinh^-1(x) right] , $$

where $x = p_F/mc$.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



Stars are electrically neutral. In the optimal case for proton degeneracy, a star is made of hydrogen, maximising the proton number density. The number density of electrons is exactly the same.



Since the Fermi momentum $p_F$ of a species is dependent only on number density$^1$, the Fermi momentum of the electrons and protons are the same. Pressure however$^1$, is an increasing function of $p_F/mc$ and since the mass of an electron is 1800 times smaller, the electron degeneracy pressure is always much higher than the proton degeneracy pressure.



Degenerate protons do exist. They form of order 1% of the density in the neutron fluid region (the bulk) of a neutron star. However, they contribute much less than a thousandth of the pressure and always lower than the degenerate electron pressure.



Actually, the form of the pressure equation (see below) does actually admit the possibility that the degeneracy pressures of electrons and protons become more similar as $p_F/mc gg 1$ (aka ultra-relativistic). But by that time, the energies of the electrons and protons are easily sufficient to create neutrons and an equilibrium is set up so that neutrons always outnumber the protons by at at least 8:1 and therefore their degeneracy pressure will dominate.



(1) For those interested: The Fermi momentum is
$$p_F = left(frac38piright)^1/3 h n^1/3 ,$$
where $n$ is the number density of fermions.



Whilst ideal fermion degeneracy pressure is given by
$$P = fracpi m^4 c^53 h^3 left[x (2x^2 -3)(1 + x^2)^1/2 + 3
sinh^-1(x) right] , $$

where $x = p_F/mc$.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Mar 29 at 14:19

























answered Mar 29 at 7:17









Rob JeffriesRob Jeffries

53.9k4111173




53.9k4111173











  • $begingroup$
    Thank you very much!!!! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 19:21
















  • $begingroup$
    Thank you very much!!!! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 19:21















$begingroup$
Thank you very much!!!! :)
$endgroup$
– Max0815
Mar 29 at 19:21




$begingroup$
Thank you very much!!!! :)
$endgroup$
– Max0815
Mar 29 at 19:21











2












$begingroup$

Another way to think of the answer is that the pressure of any nonrelativistic gas (degenerate or ideal) is always 2/3 the kinetic energy per unit volume. So we can say that when the electrons go degenerate, and contribute almost all of the pressure, it must be because they also contain almost all of the kinetic energy. This is true, the reason they contribute most of the pressure is because they hold most of the kinetic energy, but we can then ask, why do they contain most of the kinetic energy?



Framing the question this way focuses our attention on what really matters here: the thermodynamics of degeneracy. A purely degenerate gas has zero temperature, that is what degeneracy means in the thermodynamic sense. However, the kinetic energy is quite large. So it is this thermodynamic disconnect between the kinetic energy and the temperature that is the cause of the importance of the electron pressure. Since we can assume the electrons and protons equilibrate to the same temperature (that assumption is always in place when you see these kinds of analyses), the protons must also have essentially zero temperature when the electrons are highly degenerate. But protons are not degenerate, due to their higher mass (as explained above), so if they have low temperature, they also have low kinetic energy. It's due to their different thermodynamic connection between kinetic energy and temperature (which is more like an ideal gas rather than a degenerate one).



Put this way, we see what degeneracy is doing-- it is causing the electrons to hog all the kinetic energy, because degenerate electrons have a very high ratio of kinetic energy to kT, whereas protons have a more classical such ratio. That's why they produce the pressure, it's all about kinetic energy. You don't need to think about any weird forces, you only need the quantum mechanical thermodynamics, which drives the temperature of electrons down, relative to their kinetic energy, owing to the fact that degenerate electrons are very stingy about giving up heat (and temperature is the statement of which objects will give up heat in equilibrium, as per the zeroth law of thermodynamics).






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Interesting. However, doesn't really answer my question. Still, +1.
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 22:28







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Thanks. The direct answer to your question is there is no force of either electron degeneracy or proton degeneracy. Degeneracy is not a force-- it is a thermodynamic effect that alters the partitioning of kinetic energy between electrons and protons, and also among the electrons. The electrons dominate the pressure because the thermodynamics says they get almost all the kinetic energy.
    $endgroup$
    – Ken G
    Mar 30 at 2:45















2












$begingroup$

Another way to think of the answer is that the pressure of any nonrelativistic gas (degenerate or ideal) is always 2/3 the kinetic energy per unit volume. So we can say that when the electrons go degenerate, and contribute almost all of the pressure, it must be because they also contain almost all of the kinetic energy. This is true, the reason they contribute most of the pressure is because they hold most of the kinetic energy, but we can then ask, why do they contain most of the kinetic energy?



Framing the question this way focuses our attention on what really matters here: the thermodynamics of degeneracy. A purely degenerate gas has zero temperature, that is what degeneracy means in the thermodynamic sense. However, the kinetic energy is quite large. So it is this thermodynamic disconnect between the kinetic energy and the temperature that is the cause of the importance of the electron pressure. Since we can assume the electrons and protons equilibrate to the same temperature (that assumption is always in place when you see these kinds of analyses), the protons must also have essentially zero temperature when the electrons are highly degenerate. But protons are not degenerate, due to their higher mass (as explained above), so if they have low temperature, they also have low kinetic energy. It's due to their different thermodynamic connection between kinetic energy and temperature (which is more like an ideal gas rather than a degenerate one).



Put this way, we see what degeneracy is doing-- it is causing the electrons to hog all the kinetic energy, because degenerate electrons have a very high ratio of kinetic energy to kT, whereas protons have a more classical such ratio. That's why they produce the pressure, it's all about kinetic energy. You don't need to think about any weird forces, you only need the quantum mechanical thermodynamics, which drives the temperature of electrons down, relative to their kinetic energy, owing to the fact that degenerate electrons are very stingy about giving up heat (and temperature is the statement of which objects will give up heat in equilibrium, as per the zeroth law of thermodynamics).






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Interesting. However, doesn't really answer my question. Still, +1.
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 22:28







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Thanks. The direct answer to your question is there is no force of either electron degeneracy or proton degeneracy. Degeneracy is not a force-- it is a thermodynamic effect that alters the partitioning of kinetic energy between electrons and protons, and also among the electrons. The electrons dominate the pressure because the thermodynamics says they get almost all the kinetic energy.
    $endgroup$
    – Ken G
    Mar 30 at 2:45













2












2








2





$begingroup$

Another way to think of the answer is that the pressure of any nonrelativistic gas (degenerate or ideal) is always 2/3 the kinetic energy per unit volume. So we can say that when the electrons go degenerate, and contribute almost all of the pressure, it must be because they also contain almost all of the kinetic energy. This is true, the reason they contribute most of the pressure is because they hold most of the kinetic energy, but we can then ask, why do they contain most of the kinetic energy?



Framing the question this way focuses our attention on what really matters here: the thermodynamics of degeneracy. A purely degenerate gas has zero temperature, that is what degeneracy means in the thermodynamic sense. However, the kinetic energy is quite large. So it is this thermodynamic disconnect between the kinetic energy and the temperature that is the cause of the importance of the electron pressure. Since we can assume the electrons and protons equilibrate to the same temperature (that assumption is always in place when you see these kinds of analyses), the protons must also have essentially zero temperature when the electrons are highly degenerate. But protons are not degenerate, due to their higher mass (as explained above), so if they have low temperature, they also have low kinetic energy. It's due to their different thermodynamic connection between kinetic energy and temperature (which is more like an ideal gas rather than a degenerate one).



Put this way, we see what degeneracy is doing-- it is causing the electrons to hog all the kinetic energy, because degenerate electrons have a very high ratio of kinetic energy to kT, whereas protons have a more classical such ratio. That's why they produce the pressure, it's all about kinetic energy. You don't need to think about any weird forces, you only need the quantum mechanical thermodynamics, which drives the temperature of electrons down, relative to their kinetic energy, owing to the fact that degenerate electrons are very stingy about giving up heat (and temperature is the statement of which objects will give up heat in equilibrium, as per the zeroth law of thermodynamics).






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



Another way to think of the answer is that the pressure of any nonrelativistic gas (degenerate or ideal) is always 2/3 the kinetic energy per unit volume. So we can say that when the electrons go degenerate, and contribute almost all of the pressure, it must be because they also contain almost all of the kinetic energy. This is true, the reason they contribute most of the pressure is because they hold most of the kinetic energy, but we can then ask, why do they contain most of the kinetic energy?



Framing the question this way focuses our attention on what really matters here: the thermodynamics of degeneracy. A purely degenerate gas has zero temperature, that is what degeneracy means in the thermodynamic sense. However, the kinetic energy is quite large. So it is this thermodynamic disconnect between the kinetic energy and the temperature that is the cause of the importance of the electron pressure. Since we can assume the electrons and protons equilibrate to the same temperature (that assumption is always in place when you see these kinds of analyses), the protons must also have essentially zero temperature when the electrons are highly degenerate. But protons are not degenerate, due to their higher mass (as explained above), so if they have low temperature, they also have low kinetic energy. It's due to their different thermodynamic connection between kinetic energy and temperature (which is more like an ideal gas rather than a degenerate one).



Put this way, we see what degeneracy is doing-- it is causing the electrons to hog all the kinetic energy, because degenerate electrons have a very high ratio of kinetic energy to kT, whereas protons have a more classical such ratio. That's why they produce the pressure, it's all about kinetic energy. You don't need to think about any weird forces, you only need the quantum mechanical thermodynamics, which drives the temperature of electrons down, relative to their kinetic energy, owing to the fact that degenerate electrons are very stingy about giving up heat (and temperature is the statement of which objects will give up heat in equilibrium, as per the zeroth law of thermodynamics).







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Mar 29 at 16:38









Ken GKen G

3,949412




3,949412











  • $begingroup$
    Interesting. However, doesn't really answer my question. Still, +1.
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 22:28







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Thanks. The direct answer to your question is there is no force of either electron degeneracy or proton degeneracy. Degeneracy is not a force-- it is a thermodynamic effect that alters the partitioning of kinetic energy between electrons and protons, and also among the electrons. The electrons dominate the pressure because the thermodynamics says they get almost all the kinetic energy.
    $endgroup$
    – Ken G
    Mar 30 at 2:45
















  • $begingroup$
    Interesting. However, doesn't really answer my question. Still, +1.
    $endgroup$
    – Max0815
    Mar 29 at 22:28







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Thanks. The direct answer to your question is there is no force of either electron degeneracy or proton degeneracy. Degeneracy is not a force-- it is a thermodynamic effect that alters the partitioning of kinetic energy between electrons and protons, and also among the electrons. The electrons dominate the pressure because the thermodynamics says they get almost all the kinetic energy.
    $endgroup$
    – Ken G
    Mar 30 at 2:45















$begingroup$
Interesting. However, doesn't really answer my question. Still, +1.
$endgroup$
– Max0815
Mar 29 at 22:28





$begingroup$
Interesting. However, doesn't really answer my question. Still, +1.
$endgroup$
– Max0815
Mar 29 at 22:28





2




2




$begingroup$
Thanks. The direct answer to your question is there is no force of either electron degeneracy or proton degeneracy. Degeneracy is not a force-- it is a thermodynamic effect that alters the partitioning of kinetic energy between electrons and protons, and also among the electrons. The electrons dominate the pressure because the thermodynamics says they get almost all the kinetic energy.
$endgroup$
– Ken G
Mar 30 at 2:45




$begingroup$
Thanks. The direct answer to your question is there is no force of either electron degeneracy or proton degeneracy. Degeneracy is not a force-- it is a thermodynamic effect that alters the partitioning of kinetic energy between electrons and protons, and also among the electrons. The electrons dominate the pressure because the thermodynamics says they get almost all the kinetic energy.
$endgroup$
– Ken G
Mar 30 at 2:45

















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