Sylvester rank inequality: $operatornamerank A + operatornamerankB leq operatornamerank AB + n$Rank of matrices, prove inequalityHow to prove and interpret $operatornamerank(AB) leq operatornamemin(operatornamerank(A), operatornamerank(B))$?rank(AB) = rank(A) if B is invertibleprove that $textrank(AB)getextrank(A)+textrank(B)-n.$Matrices and rank inequalityHow to show that $Rank(AB)geq Rank(A)+Rank(B)-n$Proof of Sylvester rank inequalityFor nonzeros $A,B,Cin M_n(mathbbR)$, $ABC=0$. Show $operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(B)+operatornamerank(C)le 2n$Let A be $ m times n$ and $B$ be $n times p$, and suppose $AB = 0$. Explain why $mathrmrank(A) + mathrmrank(B) leq n.$Linear transformation over two vector spacesShow that $operatornamerank(A+B) leq operatornamerank(A) + operatornamerank(B)$On the rank inequality $operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(A^3)geq2operatornamerank(A^2)$Rank of the product of two full rank matricesSimultaneous Rank MinimizationProof that $operatornamerank(SAT)= operatornamerank(A)$Prove that $operatornamerank (f) + operatornamerank (g) -dim Wleq operatornamerank(gcirc f)$.How to prove $operatornamerank(XGY^T) = operatornamerank(G)$?Prove that $det(AB-BA)=0$Can the limit of a sequence of matrices of fixed rank have higher rank?Does $operatornamerank (A^2) = operatornamerank (A)$ for any matrix $Ain operatornameMat_n times n$?
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Sylvester rank inequality: $operatornamerank A + operatornamerankB leq operatornamerank AB + n$
Rank of matrices, prove inequalityHow to prove and interpret $operatornamerank(AB) leq operatornamemin(operatornamerank(A), operatornamerank(B))$?rank(AB) = rank(A) if B is invertibleprove that $textrank(AB)getextrank(A)+textrank(B)-n.$Matrices and rank inequalityHow to show that $Rank(AB)geq Rank(A)+Rank(B)-n$Proof of Sylvester rank inequalityFor nonzeros $A,B,Cin M_n(mathbbR)$, $ABC=0$. Show $operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(B)+operatornamerank(C)le 2n$Let A be $ m times n$ and $B$ be $n times p$, and suppose $AB = 0$. Explain why $mathrmrank(A) + mathrmrank(B) leq n.$Linear transformation over two vector spacesShow that $operatornamerank(A+B) leq operatornamerank(A) + operatornamerank(B)$On the rank inequality $operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(A^3)geq2operatornamerank(A^2)$Rank of the product of two full rank matricesSimultaneous Rank MinimizationProof that $operatornamerank(SAT)= operatornamerank(A)$Prove that $operatornamerank (f) + operatornamerank (g) -dim Wleq operatornamerank(gcirc f)$.How to prove $operatornamerank(XGY^T) = operatornamerank(G)$?Prove that $det(AB-BA)=0$Can the limit of a sequence of matrices of fixed rank have higher rank?Does $operatornamerank (A^2) = operatornamerank (A)$ for any matrix $Ain operatornameMat_n times n$?
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If $A$ and $B$ are two matrices of the same order $n$, then
$$ operatornamerank A + operatornamerankB leq operatornamerank AB + n. $$
I don't know how to start proving this inequality. I would be very pleased if someone helps me. Thanks!
Edit I. Rank of $A$ is the same of the equivalent matrix $A' =beginpmatrixI_r & 0 \ 0 & 0endpmatrix$. Analogously for $B$, ranks of $A$ and $B$ are $r,sleq n$. Hence, since $operatornamerankAB = minr,s$, then $r+sleq minr,s + n$. (This is not correct since $operatornamerank AB leq minr,s$.
Edit II. A discussion on the rank of a product of $H_f(A)$ and $H_c(B)$ would correct this, but I don't know how to formalize that $operatornamerankH_f(A) +operatornamerankH_c(B) - n leq operatornamerank[H_f(A)H_c(B)]$.
linear-algebra matrices inequality matrix-rank
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
If $A$ and $B$ are two matrices of the same order $n$, then
$$ operatornamerank A + operatornamerankB leq operatornamerank AB + n. $$
I don't know how to start proving this inequality. I would be very pleased if someone helps me. Thanks!
Edit I. Rank of $A$ is the same of the equivalent matrix $A' =beginpmatrixI_r & 0 \ 0 & 0endpmatrix$. Analogously for $B$, ranks of $A$ and $B$ are $r,sleq n$. Hence, since $operatornamerankAB = minr,s$, then $r+sleq minr,s + n$. (This is not correct since $operatornamerank AB leq minr,s$.
Edit II. A discussion on the rank of a product of $H_f(A)$ and $H_c(B)$ would correct this, but I don't know how to formalize that $operatornamerankH_f(A) +operatornamerankH_c(B) - n leq operatornamerank[H_f(A)H_c(B)]$.
linear-algebra matrices inequality matrix-rank
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This might be of help: math.stackexchange.com/questions/978/…
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– Git Gud
Feb 9 '13 at 19:54
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@GitGud Not really, I knew that but doesn't solves anything. Thanks anyway.
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– Ben Ward
Feb 9 '13 at 20:04
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See also: math.stackexchange.com/questions/269474/…
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– Martin Sleziak
May 28 '16 at 14:02
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If $A$ and $B$ are two matrices of the same order $n$, then
$$ operatornamerank A + operatornamerankB leq operatornamerank AB + n. $$
I don't know how to start proving this inequality. I would be very pleased if someone helps me. Thanks!
Edit I. Rank of $A$ is the same of the equivalent matrix $A' =beginpmatrixI_r & 0 \ 0 & 0endpmatrix$. Analogously for $B$, ranks of $A$ and $B$ are $r,sleq n$. Hence, since $operatornamerankAB = minr,s$, then $r+sleq minr,s + n$. (This is not correct since $operatornamerank AB leq minr,s$.
Edit II. A discussion on the rank of a product of $H_f(A)$ and $H_c(B)$ would correct this, but I don't know how to formalize that $operatornamerankH_f(A) +operatornamerankH_c(B) - n leq operatornamerank[H_f(A)H_c(B)]$.
linear-algebra matrices inequality matrix-rank
$endgroup$
If $A$ and $B$ are two matrices of the same order $n$, then
$$ operatornamerank A + operatornamerankB leq operatornamerank AB + n. $$
I don't know how to start proving this inequality. I would be very pleased if someone helps me. Thanks!
Edit I. Rank of $A$ is the same of the equivalent matrix $A' =beginpmatrixI_r & 0 \ 0 & 0endpmatrix$. Analogously for $B$, ranks of $A$ and $B$ are $r,sleq n$. Hence, since $operatornamerankAB = minr,s$, then $r+sleq minr,s + n$. (This is not correct since $operatornamerank AB leq minr,s$.
Edit II. A discussion on the rank of a product of $H_f(A)$ and $H_c(B)$ would correct this, but I don't know how to formalize that $operatornamerankH_f(A) +operatornamerankH_c(B) - n leq operatornamerank[H_f(A)H_c(B)]$.
linear-algebra matrices inequality matrix-rank
linear-algebra matrices inequality matrix-rank
edited Apr 22 '17 at 9:39
Martin Sleziak
45k10122277
45k10122277
asked Feb 9 '13 at 17:07
Ben WardBen Ward
2471312
2471312
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This might be of help: math.stackexchange.com/questions/978/…
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– Git Gud
Feb 9 '13 at 19:54
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@GitGud Not really, I knew that but doesn't solves anything. Thanks anyway.
$endgroup$
– Ben Ward
Feb 9 '13 at 20:04
$begingroup$
See also: math.stackexchange.com/questions/269474/…
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– Martin Sleziak
May 28 '16 at 14:02
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This might be of help: math.stackexchange.com/questions/978/…
$endgroup$
– Git Gud
Feb 9 '13 at 19:54
$begingroup$
@GitGud Not really, I knew that but doesn't solves anything. Thanks anyway.
$endgroup$
– Ben Ward
Feb 9 '13 at 20:04
$begingroup$
See also: math.stackexchange.com/questions/269474/…
$endgroup$
– Martin Sleziak
May 28 '16 at 14:02
$begingroup$
This might be of help: math.stackexchange.com/questions/978/…
$endgroup$
– Git Gud
Feb 9 '13 at 19:54
$begingroup$
This might be of help: math.stackexchange.com/questions/978/…
$endgroup$
– Git Gud
Feb 9 '13 at 19:54
$begingroup$
@GitGud Not really, I knew that but doesn't solves anything. Thanks anyway.
$endgroup$
– Ben Ward
Feb 9 '13 at 20:04
$begingroup$
@GitGud Not really, I knew that but doesn't solves anything. Thanks anyway.
$endgroup$
– Ben Ward
Feb 9 '13 at 20:04
$begingroup$
See also: math.stackexchange.com/questions/269474/…
$endgroup$
– Martin Sleziak
May 28 '16 at 14:02
$begingroup$
See also: math.stackexchange.com/questions/269474/…
$endgroup$
– Martin Sleziak
May 28 '16 at 14:02
add a comment |
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
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Subtract $2n$ from both sides and then multiply by $-1$; this gives the equivalent inequality $defrkoperatornamerank(n-rk A)+(n-rk B)geq n-rk(AB)$. In other words (by the rank-nullity theorem) we must show that the sums of the dimensions of the kernels of $A$ and of $B$ gives at least the dimension of the kernel of $AB$. Intuititively vectors that get killed by $AB$ either get killed by $B$ or (later) by $A$, and the dimension of $ker(AB)$ therefore cannot exceed $dimker A+dimker B$. Here is how to make that precise.
One has $ker Bsubseteq ker(AB)$, so if one restricts (the linear map with matrix) $B$ to $ker(AB)$, giving a map $tilde B:ker(AB)to K^n$, one sees that $ker(tilde B)=ker(B)$ (both inclusions are obvious). Since the image of $tilde B$ is contained in $ker A$ by the definition of $ker(AB)$, one has $rktilde Bleqdimker A$. Now rank-nullity applied to $tilde B$ gives $$dimker(AB)=dimkertilde B+rktilde Bleqdimker B+dimker A,$$ as desired.
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i cant understand how or why you fixed $(n - rank(A)) + (n - rank(B))leq (n - rank(AB)) $ as according to the rank-nullity theorem, this is exactly: $N(A) + N(B) = N(AB)$, i mean, that wouldn't be correct to use $leq$
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– Jneven
Jul 17 '18 at 9:20
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@jneven: As the text says, the new inequality is equivalent to the old one. It still needs to be proved, which I then do.
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– Marc van Leeuwen
Jul 17 '18 at 11:49
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Could you please explain a bit more detail on "restricts matrix to a map"? I searched on the web but only found "restricted to a subspace / domain". Does these have same meaning? Thanks.
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– Page David
Mar 29 at 14:04
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@PageDavid: The restriction was meant to be to the subspace $ker(AB)$. Since that subspace was already mentioned a few words later as the domain of the restricted map $tilde B$, I had omitted it to avoid repetition. But you are right, the sentence is more readable when the subspace is explicitly mentioned, so I edited it.
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– Marc van Leeuwen
Mar 29 at 14:25
add a comment |
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As left or right multiplications by invertible matrices (and in particular, elementary matrices) don't change the rank of a matrix, we may assume WLOG that $A=pmatrixI_r&0\ 0&0$. Therefore,
beginalign*
operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(B)
&=operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(AB+(I-A)B)\
&leoperatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(AB)+operatornamerank((I-A)B)\
&le r+operatornamerank(AB)+(n-r)\
&=operatornamerank(AB)+n.
endalign*
The last but one line is due to the fact that the first $r$ rows of $(I-A)B$ are zero.
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Nice concise proof !
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– Gabriel Romon
Feb 20 '15 at 8:58
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@Vim No, that's not what I did in the proof (and that equality is false anyway). You see, if $A=PtildeAQ$ where $P,Q$ are invertible and $tildeA=I_roplus0$, the inequality in question is equivalent to $r(tildeA) + r(QB) le r(tildeAQB) + n$. Let $tildeB=QB$, we can rewrite the inequality as $r(tildeA)+r(tildeB)le r(tildeAtildeB)+n$.
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– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 11:38
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@user1551 I am still a bit confused, what is $I$ in your answer? I don't think it means the identity matrix.
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– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 12:43
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@Vim It is the identity matrix.
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– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 14:31
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@user1551 alright.. I thought the sylvester's inequality the OP posted was the general $mtimes stimes s times n$ case.
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– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 14:42
add a comment |
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$$n+r(AB)=r(M)=r beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
0 & AB
endpmatrix$$
Using generalized elementary transformation to $M$:
$$M=beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
0 & AB
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
A & AB
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
I_n & -B \
A & 0
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
B & I_n \
0 & A
endpmatrix,$$
hence
$$n+r(AB)=r(M)=
rbeginpmatrix
B & I_n \
0 & A
endpmatrixgeq r(A)+r(B):$$
This solution is from here.
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add a comment |
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Denote by $r(A)$ the rank of $A$ and by $n(A)$ the nullity of $A$, i.e. the dimension of the nullspace of $A$. The rank plus nullity theorem says that
$r(A)+n(A)=n$ and $r(B)+n(B)=n$ and so $2n= r(A)+r(B)+n(A)+n(B)$.
Let $N(A)$ be the nullspace of $A$ and $R(B)$ the range-space of $B$.
Then $r(AB)=n - n(B)- dim(N(A) cap R(B))$ (try proving this, hint: what is the nullspace of $AB$?). This gives $n = r(AB) +n(B)+ n(N(A) cap R(B))$ and so $n + r(AB) = r(A)+r(B) +n(A) - n(N(A) cap R(B)) ge
r(A)+r(B)$.
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add a comment |
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Let $T:Vto W, S:Wto V$ be linear transformations which correspond to $A,B$. Equivalently we want prove that $r(T)+r(S)leq r(TS)+n$ also similarly show that $$dim ker(T) + dim ker(S) gt dim ker(TS).$$ I know that $ker (S) subset ker (TS)$. Let $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r$ be a base for $ker (S)$; expand this base for $ker(ST)$ to $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r,a_r+1,a_r+2,ldots,a_s$ and then show that $S(a_r+1), S(a_r+2),ldots,S(a_s)$ are a set of independent elements s.t. $S(a_i)in ker (T) , forall i:r+1,ldots,s$ and indicate $ker (T) ge s-r,$ so $dim ker T+ dim ker Sge s-r+r=dim ker TS$. $$ 1.dim ker T+ dim ker Sge dim ker TS$$ $$2.dim ker T+r(T)=n$$ $$3.dim ker S T+r(S)=n$$ $$4.dim ker TS+r(TS)=n.$$ By 1, 2, 3, 4 easily conclude $r(T)+r(S)leq r(TS)+n$.
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I have reformatted your answer slightly, please check whether it is OK. Also, please allow me to be pedant. You shouldn't denote a base as a set, for instance because the order is important. Mind you, it is perfectly clear what you mean.
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– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:02
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@Andreas Caranti: W,V are finite vector space then exist $rin mathbb N$ s.t $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r$ be base for $ker (S)$
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– M.H
Feb 9 '13 at 20:16
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That's ok, my point was that denoting it as a set $ a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r $ is improper, for instance because if you change the order you get a different base, while in a set there's no order of elements.
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– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:54
add a comment |
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In response to Mr. Albanese's correct critique. I submit the following. The rank of A,B is in the set of integers [0,n]. Assume we know the relatively straigtfoward proofs that rank(AB)<= min(rank(A),rank(B)), -> rank(AB) = n if rank(A) and rank(B) have rank n. There are three rank possibilities. Let the rank of A = p, the rank of B = q with p,q integers. Then (p or q < n) or (p and q < n) or (p=q=n). The first two cases imply (rank(A) + rank(B) < rank(AB) + n) or (p+q < min(p,q) + n) as p+q < 2n and (rank(A) + rank(B) > rank(AB) + n) is a contradiction. This is a contrapositive proof of the strict inequality in the Sylvester theorem (rank(A) + rank(B) < rank(AB) + n). For the equality case p=q=n. Then (rank(A) + rank(B) = rank(AB)) + n) or n + n = n + n which is true because rank(A) and rank(B) have full rank, n, implies rank(AB)=n.
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This assumes that either $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B leq operatornamerank AB + n$ or $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B > operatornamerank AB + n$. It could be the case that there is no relationship between $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B$ and $operatornamerank AB + n$.
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– Michael Albanese
Sep 7 '14 at 4:32
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I submit the following. The maximum rank of A,B is an integer n.
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– John Knox
Sep 12 '14 at 22:53
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See above per @MichaelAlbanese
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– John Knox
Sep 15 '14 at 22:40
add a comment |
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6 Answers
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6 Answers
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Subtract $2n$ from both sides and then multiply by $-1$; this gives the equivalent inequality $defrkoperatornamerank(n-rk A)+(n-rk B)geq n-rk(AB)$. In other words (by the rank-nullity theorem) we must show that the sums of the dimensions of the kernels of $A$ and of $B$ gives at least the dimension of the kernel of $AB$. Intuititively vectors that get killed by $AB$ either get killed by $B$ or (later) by $A$, and the dimension of $ker(AB)$ therefore cannot exceed $dimker A+dimker B$. Here is how to make that precise.
One has $ker Bsubseteq ker(AB)$, so if one restricts (the linear map with matrix) $B$ to $ker(AB)$, giving a map $tilde B:ker(AB)to K^n$, one sees that $ker(tilde B)=ker(B)$ (both inclusions are obvious). Since the image of $tilde B$ is contained in $ker A$ by the definition of $ker(AB)$, one has $rktilde Bleqdimker A$. Now rank-nullity applied to $tilde B$ gives $$dimker(AB)=dimkertilde B+rktilde Bleqdimker B+dimker A,$$ as desired.
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i cant understand how or why you fixed $(n - rank(A)) + (n - rank(B))leq (n - rank(AB)) $ as according to the rank-nullity theorem, this is exactly: $N(A) + N(B) = N(AB)$, i mean, that wouldn't be correct to use $leq$
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– Jneven
Jul 17 '18 at 9:20
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@jneven: As the text says, the new inequality is equivalent to the old one. It still needs to be proved, which I then do.
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
Jul 17 '18 at 11:49
$begingroup$
Could you please explain a bit more detail on "restricts matrix to a map"? I searched on the web but only found "restricted to a subspace / domain". Does these have same meaning? Thanks.
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– Page David
Mar 29 at 14:04
$begingroup$
@PageDavid: The restriction was meant to be to the subspace $ker(AB)$. Since that subspace was already mentioned a few words later as the domain of the restricted map $tilde B$, I had omitted it to avoid repetition. But you are right, the sentence is more readable when the subspace is explicitly mentioned, so I edited it.
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
Mar 29 at 14:25
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Subtract $2n$ from both sides and then multiply by $-1$; this gives the equivalent inequality $defrkoperatornamerank(n-rk A)+(n-rk B)geq n-rk(AB)$. In other words (by the rank-nullity theorem) we must show that the sums of the dimensions of the kernels of $A$ and of $B$ gives at least the dimension of the kernel of $AB$. Intuititively vectors that get killed by $AB$ either get killed by $B$ or (later) by $A$, and the dimension of $ker(AB)$ therefore cannot exceed $dimker A+dimker B$. Here is how to make that precise.
One has $ker Bsubseteq ker(AB)$, so if one restricts (the linear map with matrix) $B$ to $ker(AB)$, giving a map $tilde B:ker(AB)to K^n$, one sees that $ker(tilde B)=ker(B)$ (both inclusions are obvious). Since the image of $tilde B$ is contained in $ker A$ by the definition of $ker(AB)$, one has $rktilde Bleqdimker A$. Now rank-nullity applied to $tilde B$ gives $$dimker(AB)=dimkertilde B+rktilde Bleqdimker B+dimker A,$$ as desired.
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i cant understand how or why you fixed $(n - rank(A)) + (n - rank(B))leq (n - rank(AB)) $ as according to the rank-nullity theorem, this is exactly: $N(A) + N(B) = N(AB)$, i mean, that wouldn't be correct to use $leq$
$endgroup$
– Jneven
Jul 17 '18 at 9:20
$begingroup$
@jneven: As the text says, the new inequality is equivalent to the old one. It still needs to be proved, which I then do.
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
Jul 17 '18 at 11:49
$begingroup$
Could you please explain a bit more detail on "restricts matrix to a map"? I searched on the web but only found "restricted to a subspace / domain". Does these have same meaning? Thanks.
$endgroup$
– Page David
Mar 29 at 14:04
$begingroup$
@PageDavid: The restriction was meant to be to the subspace $ker(AB)$. Since that subspace was already mentioned a few words later as the domain of the restricted map $tilde B$, I had omitted it to avoid repetition. But you are right, the sentence is more readable when the subspace is explicitly mentioned, so I edited it.
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
Mar 29 at 14:25
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Subtract $2n$ from both sides and then multiply by $-1$; this gives the equivalent inequality $defrkoperatornamerank(n-rk A)+(n-rk B)geq n-rk(AB)$. In other words (by the rank-nullity theorem) we must show that the sums of the dimensions of the kernels of $A$ and of $B$ gives at least the dimension of the kernel of $AB$. Intuititively vectors that get killed by $AB$ either get killed by $B$ or (later) by $A$, and the dimension of $ker(AB)$ therefore cannot exceed $dimker A+dimker B$. Here is how to make that precise.
One has $ker Bsubseteq ker(AB)$, so if one restricts (the linear map with matrix) $B$ to $ker(AB)$, giving a map $tilde B:ker(AB)to K^n$, one sees that $ker(tilde B)=ker(B)$ (both inclusions are obvious). Since the image of $tilde B$ is contained in $ker A$ by the definition of $ker(AB)$, one has $rktilde Bleqdimker A$. Now rank-nullity applied to $tilde B$ gives $$dimker(AB)=dimkertilde B+rktilde Bleqdimker B+dimker A,$$ as desired.
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Subtract $2n$ from both sides and then multiply by $-1$; this gives the equivalent inequality $defrkoperatornamerank(n-rk A)+(n-rk B)geq n-rk(AB)$. In other words (by the rank-nullity theorem) we must show that the sums of the dimensions of the kernels of $A$ and of $B$ gives at least the dimension of the kernel of $AB$. Intuititively vectors that get killed by $AB$ either get killed by $B$ or (later) by $A$, and the dimension of $ker(AB)$ therefore cannot exceed $dimker A+dimker B$. Here is how to make that precise.
One has $ker Bsubseteq ker(AB)$, so if one restricts (the linear map with matrix) $B$ to $ker(AB)$, giving a map $tilde B:ker(AB)to K^n$, one sees that $ker(tilde B)=ker(B)$ (both inclusions are obvious). Since the image of $tilde B$ is contained in $ker A$ by the definition of $ker(AB)$, one has $rktilde Bleqdimker A$. Now rank-nullity applied to $tilde B$ gives $$dimker(AB)=dimkertilde B+rktilde Bleqdimker B+dimker A,$$ as desired.
edited Mar 29 at 14:23
answered Feb 9 '13 at 21:14
Marc van LeeuwenMarc van Leeuwen
88.7k5111230
88.7k5111230
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i cant understand how or why you fixed $(n - rank(A)) + (n - rank(B))leq (n - rank(AB)) $ as according to the rank-nullity theorem, this is exactly: $N(A) + N(B) = N(AB)$, i mean, that wouldn't be correct to use $leq$
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– Jneven
Jul 17 '18 at 9:20
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@jneven: As the text says, the new inequality is equivalent to the old one. It still needs to be proved, which I then do.
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– Marc van Leeuwen
Jul 17 '18 at 11:49
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Could you please explain a bit more detail on "restricts matrix to a map"? I searched on the web but only found "restricted to a subspace / domain". Does these have same meaning? Thanks.
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– Page David
Mar 29 at 14:04
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@PageDavid: The restriction was meant to be to the subspace $ker(AB)$. Since that subspace was already mentioned a few words later as the domain of the restricted map $tilde B$, I had omitted it to avoid repetition. But you are right, the sentence is more readable when the subspace is explicitly mentioned, so I edited it.
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– Marc van Leeuwen
Mar 29 at 14:25
add a comment |
$begingroup$
i cant understand how or why you fixed $(n - rank(A)) + (n - rank(B))leq (n - rank(AB)) $ as according to the rank-nullity theorem, this is exactly: $N(A) + N(B) = N(AB)$, i mean, that wouldn't be correct to use $leq$
$endgroup$
– Jneven
Jul 17 '18 at 9:20
$begingroup$
@jneven: As the text says, the new inequality is equivalent to the old one. It still needs to be proved, which I then do.
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– Marc van Leeuwen
Jul 17 '18 at 11:49
$begingroup$
Could you please explain a bit more detail on "restricts matrix to a map"? I searched on the web but only found "restricted to a subspace / domain". Does these have same meaning? Thanks.
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– Page David
Mar 29 at 14:04
$begingroup$
@PageDavid: The restriction was meant to be to the subspace $ker(AB)$. Since that subspace was already mentioned a few words later as the domain of the restricted map $tilde B$, I had omitted it to avoid repetition. But you are right, the sentence is more readable when the subspace is explicitly mentioned, so I edited it.
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– Marc van Leeuwen
Mar 29 at 14:25
$begingroup$
i cant understand how or why you fixed $(n - rank(A)) + (n - rank(B))leq (n - rank(AB)) $ as according to the rank-nullity theorem, this is exactly: $N(A) + N(B) = N(AB)$, i mean, that wouldn't be correct to use $leq$
$endgroup$
– Jneven
Jul 17 '18 at 9:20
$begingroup$
i cant understand how or why you fixed $(n - rank(A)) + (n - rank(B))leq (n - rank(AB)) $ as according to the rank-nullity theorem, this is exactly: $N(A) + N(B) = N(AB)$, i mean, that wouldn't be correct to use $leq$
$endgroup$
– Jneven
Jul 17 '18 at 9:20
$begingroup$
@jneven: As the text says, the new inequality is equivalent to the old one. It still needs to be proved, which I then do.
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
Jul 17 '18 at 11:49
$begingroup$
@jneven: As the text says, the new inequality is equivalent to the old one. It still needs to be proved, which I then do.
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
Jul 17 '18 at 11:49
$begingroup$
Could you please explain a bit more detail on "restricts matrix to a map"? I searched on the web but only found "restricted to a subspace / domain". Does these have same meaning? Thanks.
$endgroup$
– Page David
Mar 29 at 14:04
$begingroup$
Could you please explain a bit more detail on "restricts matrix to a map"? I searched on the web but only found "restricted to a subspace / domain". Does these have same meaning? Thanks.
$endgroup$
– Page David
Mar 29 at 14:04
$begingroup$
@PageDavid: The restriction was meant to be to the subspace $ker(AB)$. Since that subspace was already mentioned a few words later as the domain of the restricted map $tilde B$, I had omitted it to avoid repetition. But you are right, the sentence is more readable when the subspace is explicitly mentioned, so I edited it.
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
Mar 29 at 14:25
$begingroup$
@PageDavid: The restriction was meant to be to the subspace $ker(AB)$. Since that subspace was already mentioned a few words later as the domain of the restricted map $tilde B$, I had omitted it to avoid repetition. But you are right, the sentence is more readable when the subspace is explicitly mentioned, so I edited it.
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– Marc van Leeuwen
Mar 29 at 14:25
add a comment |
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As left or right multiplications by invertible matrices (and in particular, elementary matrices) don't change the rank of a matrix, we may assume WLOG that $A=pmatrixI_r&0\ 0&0$. Therefore,
beginalign*
operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(B)
&=operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(AB+(I-A)B)\
&leoperatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(AB)+operatornamerank((I-A)B)\
&le r+operatornamerank(AB)+(n-r)\
&=operatornamerank(AB)+n.
endalign*
The last but one line is due to the fact that the first $r$ rows of $(I-A)B$ are zero.
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Nice concise proof !
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– Gabriel Romon
Feb 20 '15 at 8:58
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@Vim No, that's not what I did in the proof (and that equality is false anyway). You see, if $A=PtildeAQ$ where $P,Q$ are invertible and $tildeA=I_roplus0$, the inequality in question is equivalent to $r(tildeA) + r(QB) le r(tildeAQB) + n$. Let $tildeB=QB$, we can rewrite the inequality as $r(tildeA)+r(tildeB)le r(tildeAtildeB)+n$.
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– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 11:38
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@user1551 I am still a bit confused, what is $I$ in your answer? I don't think it means the identity matrix.
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– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 12:43
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@Vim It is the identity matrix.
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– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 14:31
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@user1551 alright.. I thought the sylvester's inequality the OP posted was the general $mtimes stimes s times n$ case.
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– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 14:42
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As left or right multiplications by invertible matrices (and in particular, elementary matrices) don't change the rank of a matrix, we may assume WLOG that $A=pmatrixI_r&0\ 0&0$. Therefore,
beginalign*
operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(B)
&=operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(AB+(I-A)B)\
&leoperatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(AB)+operatornamerank((I-A)B)\
&le r+operatornamerank(AB)+(n-r)\
&=operatornamerank(AB)+n.
endalign*
The last but one line is due to the fact that the first $r$ rows of $(I-A)B$ are zero.
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$begingroup$
Nice concise proof !
$endgroup$
– Gabriel Romon
Feb 20 '15 at 8:58
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@Vim No, that's not what I did in the proof (and that equality is false anyway). You see, if $A=PtildeAQ$ where $P,Q$ are invertible and $tildeA=I_roplus0$, the inequality in question is equivalent to $r(tildeA) + r(QB) le r(tildeAQB) + n$. Let $tildeB=QB$, we can rewrite the inequality as $r(tildeA)+r(tildeB)le r(tildeAtildeB)+n$.
$endgroup$
– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 11:38
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@user1551 I am still a bit confused, what is $I$ in your answer? I don't think it means the identity matrix.
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– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 12:43
$begingroup$
@Vim It is the identity matrix.
$endgroup$
– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 14:31
$begingroup$
@user1551 alright.. I thought the sylvester's inequality the OP posted was the general $mtimes stimes s times n$ case.
$endgroup$
– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 14:42
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As left or right multiplications by invertible matrices (and in particular, elementary matrices) don't change the rank of a matrix, we may assume WLOG that $A=pmatrixI_r&0\ 0&0$. Therefore,
beginalign*
operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(B)
&=operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(AB+(I-A)B)\
&leoperatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(AB)+operatornamerank((I-A)B)\
&le r+operatornamerank(AB)+(n-r)\
&=operatornamerank(AB)+n.
endalign*
The last but one line is due to the fact that the first $r$ rows of $(I-A)B$ are zero.
$endgroup$
As left or right multiplications by invertible matrices (and in particular, elementary matrices) don't change the rank of a matrix, we may assume WLOG that $A=pmatrixI_r&0\ 0&0$. Therefore,
beginalign*
operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(B)
&=operatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(AB+(I-A)B)\
&leoperatornamerank(A)+operatornamerank(AB)+operatornamerank((I-A)B)\
&le r+operatornamerank(AB)+(n-r)\
&=operatornamerank(AB)+n.
endalign*
The last but one line is due to the fact that the first $r$ rows of $(I-A)B$ are zero.
answered Apr 4 '13 at 6:11
user1551user1551
74k566129
74k566129
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Nice concise proof !
$endgroup$
– Gabriel Romon
Feb 20 '15 at 8:58
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@Vim No, that's not what I did in the proof (and that equality is false anyway). You see, if $A=PtildeAQ$ where $P,Q$ are invertible and $tildeA=I_roplus0$, the inequality in question is equivalent to $r(tildeA) + r(QB) le r(tildeAQB) + n$. Let $tildeB=QB$, we can rewrite the inequality as $r(tildeA)+r(tildeB)le r(tildeAtildeB)+n$.
$endgroup$
– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 11:38
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@user1551 I am still a bit confused, what is $I$ in your answer? I don't think it means the identity matrix.
$endgroup$
– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 12:43
$begingroup$
@Vim It is the identity matrix.
$endgroup$
– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 14:31
$begingroup$
@user1551 alright.. I thought the sylvester's inequality the OP posted was the general $mtimes stimes s times n$ case.
$endgroup$
– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 14:42
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Nice concise proof !
$endgroup$
– Gabriel Romon
Feb 20 '15 at 8:58
$begingroup$
@Vim No, that's not what I did in the proof (and that equality is false anyway). You see, if $A=PtildeAQ$ where $P,Q$ are invertible and $tildeA=I_roplus0$, the inequality in question is equivalent to $r(tildeA) + r(QB) le r(tildeAQB) + n$. Let $tildeB=QB$, we can rewrite the inequality as $r(tildeA)+r(tildeB)le r(tildeAtildeB)+n$.
$endgroup$
– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 11:38
$begingroup$
@user1551 I am still a bit confused, what is $I$ in your answer? I don't think it means the identity matrix.
$endgroup$
– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 12:43
$begingroup$
@Vim It is the identity matrix.
$endgroup$
– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 14:31
$begingroup$
@user1551 alright.. I thought the sylvester's inequality the OP posted was the general $mtimes stimes s times n$ case.
$endgroup$
– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 14:42
$begingroup$
Nice concise proof !
$endgroup$
– Gabriel Romon
Feb 20 '15 at 8:58
$begingroup$
Nice concise proof !
$endgroup$
– Gabriel Romon
Feb 20 '15 at 8:58
$begingroup$
@Vim No, that's not what I did in the proof (and that equality is false anyway). You see, if $A=PtildeAQ$ where $P,Q$ are invertible and $tildeA=I_roplus0$, the inequality in question is equivalent to $r(tildeA) + r(QB) le r(tildeAQB) + n$. Let $tildeB=QB$, we can rewrite the inequality as $r(tildeA)+r(tildeB)le r(tildeAtildeB)+n$.
$endgroup$
– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 11:38
$begingroup$
@Vim No, that's not what I did in the proof (and that equality is false anyway). You see, if $A=PtildeAQ$ where $P,Q$ are invertible and $tildeA=I_roplus0$, the inequality in question is equivalent to $r(tildeA) + r(QB) le r(tildeAQB) + n$. Let $tildeB=QB$, we can rewrite the inequality as $r(tildeA)+r(tildeB)le r(tildeAtildeB)+n$.
$endgroup$
– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 11:38
$begingroup$
@user1551 I am still a bit confused, what is $I$ in your answer? I don't think it means the identity matrix.
$endgroup$
– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 12:43
$begingroup$
@user1551 I am still a bit confused, what is $I$ in your answer? I don't think it means the identity matrix.
$endgroup$
– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 12:43
$begingroup$
@Vim It is the identity matrix.
$endgroup$
– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 14:31
$begingroup$
@Vim It is the identity matrix.
$endgroup$
– user1551
Sep 7 '15 at 14:31
$begingroup$
@user1551 alright.. I thought the sylvester's inequality the OP posted was the general $mtimes stimes s times n$ case.
$endgroup$
– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 14:42
$begingroup$
@user1551 alright.. I thought the sylvester's inequality the OP posted was the general $mtimes stimes s times n$ case.
$endgroup$
– Vim
Sep 7 '15 at 14:42
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$$n+r(AB)=r(M)=r beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
0 & AB
endpmatrix$$
Using generalized elementary transformation to $M$:
$$M=beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
0 & AB
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
A & AB
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
I_n & -B \
A & 0
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
B & I_n \
0 & A
endpmatrix,$$
hence
$$n+r(AB)=r(M)=
rbeginpmatrix
B & I_n \
0 & A
endpmatrixgeq r(A)+r(B):$$
This solution is from here.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$$n+r(AB)=r(M)=r beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
0 & AB
endpmatrix$$
Using generalized elementary transformation to $M$:
$$M=beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
0 & AB
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
A & AB
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
I_n & -B \
A & 0
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
B & I_n \
0 & A
endpmatrix,$$
hence
$$n+r(AB)=r(M)=
rbeginpmatrix
B & I_n \
0 & A
endpmatrixgeq r(A)+r(B):$$
This solution is from here.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$$n+r(AB)=r(M)=r beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
0 & AB
endpmatrix$$
Using generalized elementary transformation to $M$:
$$M=beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
0 & AB
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
A & AB
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
I_n & -B \
A & 0
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
B & I_n \
0 & A
endpmatrix,$$
hence
$$n+r(AB)=r(M)=
rbeginpmatrix
B & I_n \
0 & A
endpmatrixgeq r(A)+r(B):$$
This solution is from here.
$endgroup$
$$n+r(AB)=r(M)=r beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
0 & AB
endpmatrix$$
Using generalized elementary transformation to $M$:
$$M=beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
0 & AB
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
I_n & 0 \
A & AB
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
I_n & -B \
A & 0
endpmatrix
to beginpmatrix
B & I_n \
0 & A
endpmatrix,$$
hence
$$n+r(AB)=r(M)=
rbeginpmatrix
B & I_n \
0 & A
endpmatrixgeq r(A)+r(B):$$
This solution is from here.
edited Feb 20 '15 at 8:50
answered Jul 8 '13 at 10:24
MherMher
3,8301432
3,8301432
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Denote by $r(A)$ the rank of $A$ and by $n(A)$ the nullity of $A$, i.e. the dimension of the nullspace of $A$. The rank plus nullity theorem says that
$r(A)+n(A)=n$ and $r(B)+n(B)=n$ and so $2n= r(A)+r(B)+n(A)+n(B)$.
Let $N(A)$ be the nullspace of $A$ and $R(B)$ the range-space of $B$.
Then $r(AB)=n - n(B)- dim(N(A) cap R(B))$ (try proving this, hint: what is the nullspace of $AB$?). This gives $n = r(AB) +n(B)+ n(N(A) cap R(B))$ and so $n + r(AB) = r(A)+r(B) +n(A) - n(N(A) cap R(B)) ge
r(A)+r(B)$.
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
Denote by $r(A)$ the rank of $A$ and by $n(A)$ the nullity of $A$, i.e. the dimension of the nullspace of $A$. The rank plus nullity theorem says that
$r(A)+n(A)=n$ and $r(B)+n(B)=n$ and so $2n= r(A)+r(B)+n(A)+n(B)$.
Let $N(A)$ be the nullspace of $A$ and $R(B)$ the range-space of $B$.
Then $r(AB)=n - n(B)- dim(N(A) cap R(B))$ (try proving this, hint: what is the nullspace of $AB$?). This gives $n = r(AB) +n(B)+ n(N(A) cap R(B))$ and so $n + r(AB) = r(A)+r(B) +n(A) - n(N(A) cap R(B)) ge
r(A)+r(B)$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Denote by $r(A)$ the rank of $A$ and by $n(A)$ the nullity of $A$, i.e. the dimension of the nullspace of $A$. The rank plus nullity theorem says that
$r(A)+n(A)=n$ and $r(B)+n(B)=n$ and so $2n= r(A)+r(B)+n(A)+n(B)$.
Let $N(A)$ be the nullspace of $A$ and $R(B)$ the range-space of $B$.
Then $r(AB)=n - n(B)- dim(N(A) cap R(B))$ (try proving this, hint: what is the nullspace of $AB$?). This gives $n = r(AB) +n(B)+ n(N(A) cap R(B))$ and so $n + r(AB) = r(A)+r(B) +n(A) - n(N(A) cap R(B)) ge
r(A)+r(B)$.
$endgroup$
Denote by $r(A)$ the rank of $A$ and by $n(A)$ the nullity of $A$, i.e. the dimension of the nullspace of $A$. The rank plus nullity theorem says that
$r(A)+n(A)=n$ and $r(B)+n(B)=n$ and so $2n= r(A)+r(B)+n(A)+n(B)$.
Let $N(A)$ be the nullspace of $A$ and $R(B)$ the range-space of $B$.
Then $r(AB)=n - n(B)- dim(N(A) cap R(B))$ (try proving this, hint: what is the nullspace of $AB$?). This gives $n = r(AB) +n(B)+ n(N(A) cap R(B))$ and so $n + r(AB) = r(A)+r(B) +n(A) - n(N(A) cap R(B)) ge
r(A)+r(B)$.
edited Apr 2 '13 at 15:46
user26857
answered Feb 9 '13 at 20:08
ManosManos
14.1k33288
14.1k33288
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $T:Vto W, S:Wto V$ be linear transformations which correspond to $A,B$. Equivalently we want prove that $r(T)+r(S)leq r(TS)+n$ also similarly show that $$dim ker(T) + dim ker(S) gt dim ker(TS).$$ I know that $ker (S) subset ker (TS)$. Let $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r$ be a base for $ker (S)$; expand this base for $ker(ST)$ to $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r,a_r+1,a_r+2,ldots,a_s$ and then show that $S(a_r+1), S(a_r+2),ldots,S(a_s)$ are a set of independent elements s.t. $S(a_i)in ker (T) , forall i:r+1,ldots,s$ and indicate $ker (T) ge s-r,$ so $dim ker T+ dim ker Sge s-r+r=dim ker TS$. $$ 1.dim ker T+ dim ker Sge dim ker TS$$ $$2.dim ker T+r(T)=n$$ $$3.dim ker S T+r(S)=n$$ $$4.dim ker TS+r(TS)=n.$$ By 1, 2, 3, 4 easily conclude $r(T)+r(S)leq r(TS)+n$.
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$begingroup$
I have reformatted your answer slightly, please check whether it is OK. Also, please allow me to be pedant. You shouldn't denote a base as a set, for instance because the order is important. Mind you, it is perfectly clear what you mean.
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– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:02
$begingroup$
@Andreas Caranti: W,V are finite vector space then exist $rin mathbb N$ s.t $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r$ be base for $ker (S)$
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– M.H
Feb 9 '13 at 20:16
$begingroup$
That's ok, my point was that denoting it as a set $ a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r $ is improper, for instance because if you change the order you get a different base, while in a set there's no order of elements.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:54
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $T:Vto W, S:Wto V$ be linear transformations which correspond to $A,B$. Equivalently we want prove that $r(T)+r(S)leq r(TS)+n$ also similarly show that $$dim ker(T) + dim ker(S) gt dim ker(TS).$$ I know that $ker (S) subset ker (TS)$. Let $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r$ be a base for $ker (S)$; expand this base for $ker(ST)$ to $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r,a_r+1,a_r+2,ldots,a_s$ and then show that $S(a_r+1), S(a_r+2),ldots,S(a_s)$ are a set of independent elements s.t. $S(a_i)in ker (T) , forall i:r+1,ldots,s$ and indicate $ker (T) ge s-r,$ so $dim ker T+ dim ker Sge s-r+r=dim ker TS$. $$ 1.dim ker T+ dim ker Sge dim ker TS$$ $$2.dim ker T+r(T)=n$$ $$3.dim ker S T+r(S)=n$$ $$4.dim ker TS+r(TS)=n.$$ By 1, 2, 3, 4 easily conclude $r(T)+r(S)leq r(TS)+n$.
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$begingroup$
I have reformatted your answer slightly, please check whether it is OK. Also, please allow me to be pedant. You shouldn't denote a base as a set, for instance because the order is important. Mind you, it is perfectly clear what you mean.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:02
$begingroup$
@Andreas Caranti: W,V are finite vector space then exist $rin mathbb N$ s.t $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r$ be base for $ker (S)$
$endgroup$
– M.H
Feb 9 '13 at 20:16
$begingroup$
That's ok, my point was that denoting it as a set $ a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r $ is improper, for instance because if you change the order you get a different base, while in a set there's no order of elements.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:54
add a comment |
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Let $T:Vto W, S:Wto V$ be linear transformations which correspond to $A,B$. Equivalently we want prove that $r(T)+r(S)leq r(TS)+n$ also similarly show that $$dim ker(T) + dim ker(S) gt dim ker(TS).$$ I know that $ker (S) subset ker (TS)$. Let $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r$ be a base for $ker (S)$; expand this base for $ker(ST)$ to $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r,a_r+1,a_r+2,ldots,a_s$ and then show that $S(a_r+1), S(a_r+2),ldots,S(a_s)$ are a set of independent elements s.t. $S(a_i)in ker (T) , forall i:r+1,ldots,s$ and indicate $ker (T) ge s-r,$ so $dim ker T+ dim ker Sge s-r+r=dim ker TS$. $$ 1.dim ker T+ dim ker Sge dim ker TS$$ $$2.dim ker T+r(T)=n$$ $$3.dim ker S T+r(S)=n$$ $$4.dim ker TS+r(TS)=n.$$ By 1, 2, 3, 4 easily conclude $r(T)+r(S)leq r(TS)+n$.
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Let $T:Vto W, S:Wto V$ be linear transformations which correspond to $A,B$. Equivalently we want prove that $r(T)+r(S)leq r(TS)+n$ also similarly show that $$dim ker(T) + dim ker(S) gt dim ker(TS).$$ I know that $ker (S) subset ker (TS)$. Let $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r$ be a base for $ker (S)$; expand this base for $ker(ST)$ to $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r,a_r+1,a_r+2,ldots,a_s$ and then show that $S(a_r+1), S(a_r+2),ldots,S(a_s)$ are a set of independent elements s.t. $S(a_i)in ker (T) , forall i:r+1,ldots,s$ and indicate $ker (T) ge s-r,$ so $dim ker T+ dim ker Sge s-r+r=dim ker TS$. $$ 1.dim ker T+ dim ker Sge dim ker TS$$ $$2.dim ker T+r(T)=n$$ $$3.dim ker S T+r(S)=n$$ $$4.dim ker TS+r(TS)=n.$$ By 1, 2, 3, 4 easily conclude $r(T)+r(S)leq r(TS)+n$.
edited Apr 2 '13 at 15:55
user26857
answered Feb 9 '13 at 19:56
M.HM.H
7,32211654
7,32211654
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I have reformatted your answer slightly, please check whether it is OK. Also, please allow me to be pedant. You shouldn't denote a base as a set, for instance because the order is important. Mind you, it is perfectly clear what you mean.
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– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:02
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@Andreas Caranti: W,V are finite vector space then exist $rin mathbb N$ s.t $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r$ be base for $ker (S)$
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– M.H
Feb 9 '13 at 20:16
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That's ok, my point was that denoting it as a set $ a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r $ is improper, for instance because if you change the order you get a different base, while in a set there's no order of elements.
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– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:54
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I have reformatted your answer slightly, please check whether it is OK. Also, please allow me to be pedant. You shouldn't denote a base as a set, for instance because the order is important. Mind you, it is perfectly clear what you mean.
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– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:02
$begingroup$
@Andreas Caranti: W,V are finite vector space then exist $rin mathbb N$ s.t $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r$ be base for $ker (S)$
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– M.H
Feb 9 '13 at 20:16
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That's ok, my point was that denoting it as a set $ a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r $ is improper, for instance because if you change the order you get a different base, while in a set there's no order of elements.
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– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:54
$begingroup$
I have reformatted your answer slightly, please check whether it is OK. Also, please allow me to be pedant. You shouldn't denote a base as a set, for instance because the order is important. Mind you, it is perfectly clear what you mean.
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– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:02
$begingroup$
I have reformatted your answer slightly, please check whether it is OK. Also, please allow me to be pedant. You shouldn't denote a base as a set, for instance because the order is important. Mind you, it is perfectly clear what you mean.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:02
$begingroup$
@Andreas Caranti: W,V are finite vector space then exist $rin mathbb N$ s.t $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r$ be base for $ker (S)$
$endgroup$
– M.H
Feb 9 '13 at 20:16
$begingroup$
@Andreas Caranti: W,V are finite vector space then exist $rin mathbb N$ s.t $a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r$ be base for $ker (S)$
$endgroup$
– M.H
Feb 9 '13 at 20:16
$begingroup$
That's ok, my point was that denoting it as a set $ a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r $ is improper, for instance because if you change the order you get a different base, while in a set there's no order of elements.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:54
$begingroup$
That's ok, my point was that denoting it as a set $ a_1,a_2,ldots,a_r $ is improper, for instance because if you change the order you get a different base, while in a set there's no order of elements.
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– Andreas Caranti
Feb 9 '13 at 20:54
add a comment |
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In response to Mr. Albanese's correct critique. I submit the following. The rank of A,B is in the set of integers [0,n]. Assume we know the relatively straigtfoward proofs that rank(AB)<= min(rank(A),rank(B)), -> rank(AB) = n if rank(A) and rank(B) have rank n. There are three rank possibilities. Let the rank of A = p, the rank of B = q with p,q integers. Then (p or q < n) or (p and q < n) or (p=q=n). The first two cases imply (rank(A) + rank(B) < rank(AB) + n) or (p+q < min(p,q) + n) as p+q < 2n and (rank(A) + rank(B) > rank(AB) + n) is a contradiction. This is a contrapositive proof of the strict inequality in the Sylvester theorem (rank(A) + rank(B) < rank(AB) + n). For the equality case p=q=n. Then (rank(A) + rank(B) = rank(AB)) + n) or n + n = n + n which is true because rank(A) and rank(B) have full rank, n, implies rank(AB)=n.
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This assumes that either $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B leq operatornamerank AB + n$ or $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B > operatornamerank AB + n$. It could be the case that there is no relationship between $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B$ and $operatornamerank AB + n$.
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– Michael Albanese
Sep 7 '14 at 4:32
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I submit the following. The maximum rank of A,B is an integer n.
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– John Knox
Sep 12 '14 at 22:53
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See above per @MichaelAlbanese
$endgroup$
– John Knox
Sep 15 '14 at 22:40
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In response to Mr. Albanese's correct critique. I submit the following. The rank of A,B is in the set of integers [0,n]. Assume we know the relatively straigtfoward proofs that rank(AB)<= min(rank(A),rank(B)), -> rank(AB) = n if rank(A) and rank(B) have rank n. There are three rank possibilities. Let the rank of A = p, the rank of B = q with p,q integers. Then (p or q < n) or (p and q < n) or (p=q=n). The first two cases imply (rank(A) + rank(B) < rank(AB) + n) or (p+q < min(p,q) + n) as p+q < 2n and (rank(A) + rank(B) > rank(AB) + n) is a contradiction. This is a contrapositive proof of the strict inequality in the Sylvester theorem (rank(A) + rank(B) < rank(AB) + n). For the equality case p=q=n. Then (rank(A) + rank(B) = rank(AB)) + n) or n + n = n + n which is true because rank(A) and rank(B) have full rank, n, implies rank(AB)=n.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This assumes that either $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B leq operatornamerank AB + n$ or $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B > operatornamerank AB + n$. It could be the case that there is no relationship between $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B$ and $operatornamerank AB + n$.
$endgroup$
– Michael Albanese
Sep 7 '14 at 4:32
$begingroup$
I submit the following. The maximum rank of A,B is an integer n.
$endgroup$
– John Knox
Sep 12 '14 at 22:53
$begingroup$
See above per @MichaelAlbanese
$endgroup$
– John Knox
Sep 15 '14 at 22:40
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In response to Mr. Albanese's correct critique. I submit the following. The rank of A,B is in the set of integers [0,n]. Assume we know the relatively straigtfoward proofs that rank(AB)<= min(rank(A),rank(B)), -> rank(AB) = n if rank(A) and rank(B) have rank n. There are three rank possibilities. Let the rank of A = p, the rank of B = q with p,q integers. Then (p or q < n) or (p and q < n) or (p=q=n). The first two cases imply (rank(A) + rank(B) < rank(AB) + n) or (p+q < min(p,q) + n) as p+q < 2n and (rank(A) + rank(B) > rank(AB) + n) is a contradiction. This is a contrapositive proof of the strict inequality in the Sylvester theorem (rank(A) + rank(B) < rank(AB) + n). For the equality case p=q=n. Then (rank(A) + rank(B) = rank(AB)) + n) or n + n = n + n which is true because rank(A) and rank(B) have full rank, n, implies rank(AB)=n.
$endgroup$
In response to Mr. Albanese's correct critique. I submit the following. The rank of A,B is in the set of integers [0,n]. Assume we know the relatively straigtfoward proofs that rank(AB)<= min(rank(A),rank(B)), -> rank(AB) = n if rank(A) and rank(B) have rank n. There are three rank possibilities. Let the rank of A = p, the rank of B = q with p,q integers. Then (p or q < n) or (p and q < n) or (p=q=n). The first two cases imply (rank(A) + rank(B) < rank(AB) + n) or (p+q < min(p,q) + n) as p+q < 2n and (rank(A) + rank(B) > rank(AB) + n) is a contradiction. This is a contrapositive proof of the strict inequality in the Sylvester theorem (rank(A) + rank(B) < rank(AB) + n). For the equality case p=q=n. Then (rank(A) + rank(B) = rank(AB)) + n) or n + n = n + n which is true because rank(A) and rank(B) have full rank, n, implies rank(AB)=n.
edited Sep 13 '14 at 3:07
answered Sep 7 '14 at 4:10
John KnoxJohn Knox
114
114
$begingroup$
This assumes that either $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B leq operatornamerank AB + n$ or $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B > operatornamerank AB + n$. It could be the case that there is no relationship between $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B$ and $operatornamerank AB + n$.
$endgroup$
– Michael Albanese
Sep 7 '14 at 4:32
$begingroup$
I submit the following. The maximum rank of A,B is an integer n.
$endgroup$
– John Knox
Sep 12 '14 at 22:53
$begingroup$
See above per @MichaelAlbanese
$endgroup$
– John Knox
Sep 15 '14 at 22:40
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This assumes that either $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B leq operatornamerank AB + n$ or $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B > operatornamerank AB + n$. It could be the case that there is no relationship between $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B$ and $operatornamerank AB + n$.
$endgroup$
– Michael Albanese
Sep 7 '14 at 4:32
$begingroup$
I submit the following. The maximum rank of A,B is an integer n.
$endgroup$
– John Knox
Sep 12 '14 at 22:53
$begingroup$
See above per @MichaelAlbanese
$endgroup$
– John Knox
Sep 15 '14 at 22:40
$begingroup$
This assumes that either $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B leq operatornamerank AB + n$ or $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B > operatornamerank AB + n$. It could be the case that there is no relationship between $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B$ and $operatornamerank AB + n$.
$endgroup$
– Michael Albanese
Sep 7 '14 at 4:32
$begingroup$
This assumes that either $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B leq operatornamerank AB + n$ or $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B > operatornamerank AB + n$. It could be the case that there is no relationship between $operatornamerank A + operatornamerank B$ and $operatornamerank AB + n$.
$endgroup$
– Michael Albanese
Sep 7 '14 at 4:32
$begingroup$
I submit the following. The maximum rank of A,B is an integer n.
$endgroup$
– John Knox
Sep 12 '14 at 22:53
$begingroup$
I submit the following. The maximum rank of A,B is an integer n.
$endgroup$
– John Knox
Sep 12 '14 at 22:53
$begingroup$
See above per @MichaelAlbanese
$endgroup$
– John Knox
Sep 15 '14 at 22:40
$begingroup$
See above per @MichaelAlbanese
$endgroup$
– John Knox
Sep 15 '14 at 22:40
add a comment |
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This might be of help: math.stackexchange.com/questions/978/…
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– Git Gud
Feb 9 '13 at 19:54
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@GitGud Not really, I knew that but doesn't solves anything. Thanks anyway.
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– Ben Ward
Feb 9 '13 at 20:04
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See also: math.stackexchange.com/questions/269474/…
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– Martin Sleziak
May 28 '16 at 14:02