Generators of Principal IdealPrincipal ideal ringPrincipal Ideal Domain ExerciseDefinition of principal idealcharacterization of Principal ideal ringsIs This an Interesting Principal Ideal?Show $I$ is a principal idealConnection between principal ideal and Cayley's theorem (?)Principal Ideal AvoidanceShowing an Artinian ring, all of whose maximal ideals are principal, is a principal ideal ring.Existence of Principal Ideal

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Generators of Principal Ideal


Principal ideal ringPrincipal Ideal Domain ExerciseDefinition of principal idealcharacterization of Principal ideal ringsIs This an Interesting Principal Ideal?Show $I$ is a principal idealConnection between principal ideal and Cayley's theorem (?)Principal Ideal AvoidanceShowing an Artinian ring, all of whose maximal ideals are principal, is a principal ideal ring.Existence of Principal Ideal













2












$begingroup$


Suppose $R$ is a commutative ring with $1neq0$. Let $P_1, P_2,dots,P_n$ be $n$ principal ideals of $R$.



Assume $a_1, a_2,dots,a_n$ be the generator of $P_1, P_2,dots,P_n$ respectively. Then, what is the generator of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$?



My Intuition:



$a_1a_2dotsm a_n$ is the generator of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$.



Reason for intuition:



Any element of any element of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$ is of the form $b_1b_2dotsm b_n$ such that $b_iin P_i$ for $i=1,2,dots,n$.



But each $b_i$ is of the form $c_ia_i$ in the ideal $P_i$ for some $c_iin R$.



Therefore, each element of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$ is of the form $prod_i=1 ^i=n c_ia_i$.



Now, $R$ is commutative ring. Therefore, we have $(prod_i=1 ^i=n c_i)(prod_i=1 ^i=n a_i)$.



Now, Let $c=prod_i=1 ^i=n c_i$ for some $cin R$ because $R$ is a ring. Therefore $prod_i=1 ^i=n a_i$ is the generator of $prod_i=1 ^i=n P_i$.



Another question:



What happens when $R$ is non-commutative with $1neq 0$?



Please give me hints.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$
















    2












    $begingroup$


    Suppose $R$ is a commutative ring with $1neq0$. Let $P_1, P_2,dots,P_n$ be $n$ principal ideals of $R$.



    Assume $a_1, a_2,dots,a_n$ be the generator of $P_1, P_2,dots,P_n$ respectively. Then, what is the generator of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$?



    My Intuition:



    $a_1a_2dotsm a_n$ is the generator of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$.



    Reason for intuition:



    Any element of any element of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$ is of the form $b_1b_2dotsm b_n$ such that $b_iin P_i$ for $i=1,2,dots,n$.



    But each $b_i$ is of the form $c_ia_i$ in the ideal $P_i$ for some $c_iin R$.



    Therefore, each element of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$ is of the form $prod_i=1 ^i=n c_ia_i$.



    Now, $R$ is commutative ring. Therefore, we have $(prod_i=1 ^i=n c_i)(prod_i=1 ^i=n a_i)$.



    Now, Let $c=prod_i=1 ^i=n c_i$ for some $cin R$ because $R$ is a ring. Therefore $prod_i=1 ^i=n a_i$ is the generator of $prod_i=1 ^i=n P_i$.



    Another question:



    What happens when $R$ is non-commutative with $1neq 0$?



    Please give me hints.










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      2












      2








      2





      $begingroup$


      Suppose $R$ is a commutative ring with $1neq0$. Let $P_1, P_2,dots,P_n$ be $n$ principal ideals of $R$.



      Assume $a_1, a_2,dots,a_n$ be the generator of $P_1, P_2,dots,P_n$ respectively. Then, what is the generator of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$?



      My Intuition:



      $a_1a_2dotsm a_n$ is the generator of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$.



      Reason for intuition:



      Any element of any element of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$ is of the form $b_1b_2dotsm b_n$ such that $b_iin P_i$ for $i=1,2,dots,n$.



      But each $b_i$ is of the form $c_ia_i$ in the ideal $P_i$ for some $c_iin R$.



      Therefore, each element of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$ is of the form $prod_i=1 ^i=n c_ia_i$.



      Now, $R$ is commutative ring. Therefore, we have $(prod_i=1 ^i=n c_i)(prod_i=1 ^i=n a_i)$.



      Now, Let $c=prod_i=1 ^i=n c_i$ for some $cin R$ because $R$ is a ring. Therefore $prod_i=1 ^i=n a_i$ is the generator of $prod_i=1 ^i=n P_i$.



      Another question:



      What happens when $R$ is non-commutative with $1neq 0$?



      Please give me hints.










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Suppose $R$ is a commutative ring with $1neq0$. Let $P_1, P_2,dots,P_n$ be $n$ principal ideals of $R$.



      Assume $a_1, a_2,dots,a_n$ be the generator of $P_1, P_2,dots,P_n$ respectively. Then, what is the generator of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$?



      My Intuition:



      $a_1a_2dotsm a_n$ is the generator of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$.



      Reason for intuition:



      Any element of any element of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$ is of the form $b_1b_2dotsm b_n$ such that $b_iin P_i$ for $i=1,2,dots,n$.



      But each $b_i$ is of the form $c_ia_i$ in the ideal $P_i$ for some $c_iin R$.



      Therefore, each element of the ideal $P_1P_2dotsm P_n$ is of the form $prod_i=1 ^i=n c_ia_i$.



      Now, $R$ is commutative ring. Therefore, we have $(prod_i=1 ^i=n c_i)(prod_i=1 ^i=n a_i)$.



      Now, Let $c=prod_i=1 ^i=n c_i$ for some $cin R$ because $R$ is a ring. Therefore $prod_i=1 ^i=n a_i$ is the generator of $prod_i=1 ^i=n P_i$.



      Another question:



      What happens when $R$ is non-commutative with $1neq 0$?



      Please give me hints.







      abstract-algebra ideals






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited Mar 29 at 21:41









      egreg

      185k1486207




      185k1486207










      asked Mar 29 at 16:22









      KumarKumar

      519




      519




















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          3












          $begingroup$

          If $I,J$ are two ideals in a commutative ring, the elements of the product $IJ$ aren't necessarily of the form $xy$ where $xin I$, $yin J$. Instead, the elements are sums of such products: thus each element of $IJ$ has the form $sum_i=1^n x_iy_i$ where $x_iin I$ and $y_iin J$.



          You're right that if $I,J$ have given generating sets, say $I=(x_1,ldots,x_m)$ and $J=(y_1,ldots,y_n)$, then $IJ$ is generated (as an ideal) by products $x_iy_j$ where $1leq ileq m$ and $1leq jleq n$. Try to prove this!



          So to show that a product of principal ideals is again principal: your proof isn't quite correct, but it's almost correct. Do you see how to fix it?




          For noncommutative rings:



          I don't think a product of principal ideals is even finitely-generated, let alone principal, even if you only work with one-sided ideals. Keep in mind that if $I$ is the two-sided ideal of $R$ generated by some element $x$, then it's still not true that elements of $I$ have the form $rxs$ for $r,sin R$ --- the elements of $I$ are sums of such products. If you want to work with left ideals only, even then the elements of the product $RxRy$ have the form $rxsy$ for $r,sin R$. There's a pesky "$s$" in the middle of that monomial.



          For example, let $R=mathbfClangle x,yrangle$ be a noncommutative polynomial ring in two variables $x,y$, and consider the left ideals $I=Rx$ and $J=Ry$. Then $IJ=RxRy$ is not finitely-generated as a left ideal: I think this might not be so easy to see, and it involves some combinatorics that I will sweep under the rug.




          Claim: The left ideal $IJ$ is not finitely-generated.




          Proof. Let $I_k$ be the left ideal generated by $m$ for $kgeq 0$ --- what this notation means is that you have $x$, followed by a monomial $m$ of length $leq k$, then ending in a $y$. So for example, $I_3$ contains the monomial $x^3y^2=x(x^2y)y$, but it does not contain the monomial $xy^7=x(y^6)y$ because the "sandwiched" $y^6$ is too long.



          Then the $I_k$'s form a strict ascending chain $I_1subsetneq I_2subsetneq I_3subsetneq cdots$, and the product $IJ$ is obtained as the union: $IJ=cup_kgeq 0 I_k$. So $IJ$ cannot be finitely-generated. QED



          Think of it like this: $I$ is the set of polynomials all of whose monomials end in $x$. Similar for $J$. And then the product $IJ$ is the set of polynomials all of whose monomials have at least one $x$, and end in $y$ --- but what could be in between that $x$ and the last $y$ could be arbitrarily large.






          share|cite|improve this answer











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            $begingroup$

            If $I,J$ are two ideals in a commutative ring, the elements of the product $IJ$ aren't necessarily of the form $xy$ where $xin I$, $yin J$. Instead, the elements are sums of such products: thus each element of $IJ$ has the form $sum_i=1^n x_iy_i$ where $x_iin I$ and $y_iin J$.



            You're right that if $I,J$ have given generating sets, say $I=(x_1,ldots,x_m)$ and $J=(y_1,ldots,y_n)$, then $IJ$ is generated (as an ideal) by products $x_iy_j$ where $1leq ileq m$ and $1leq jleq n$. Try to prove this!



            So to show that a product of principal ideals is again principal: your proof isn't quite correct, but it's almost correct. Do you see how to fix it?




            For noncommutative rings:



            I don't think a product of principal ideals is even finitely-generated, let alone principal, even if you only work with one-sided ideals. Keep in mind that if $I$ is the two-sided ideal of $R$ generated by some element $x$, then it's still not true that elements of $I$ have the form $rxs$ for $r,sin R$ --- the elements of $I$ are sums of such products. If you want to work with left ideals only, even then the elements of the product $RxRy$ have the form $rxsy$ for $r,sin R$. There's a pesky "$s$" in the middle of that monomial.



            For example, let $R=mathbfClangle x,yrangle$ be a noncommutative polynomial ring in two variables $x,y$, and consider the left ideals $I=Rx$ and $J=Ry$. Then $IJ=RxRy$ is not finitely-generated as a left ideal: I think this might not be so easy to see, and it involves some combinatorics that I will sweep under the rug.




            Claim: The left ideal $IJ$ is not finitely-generated.




            Proof. Let $I_k$ be the left ideal generated by $m$ for $kgeq 0$ --- what this notation means is that you have $x$, followed by a monomial $m$ of length $leq k$, then ending in a $y$. So for example, $I_3$ contains the monomial $x^3y^2=x(x^2y)y$, but it does not contain the monomial $xy^7=x(y^6)y$ because the "sandwiched" $y^6$ is too long.



            Then the $I_k$'s form a strict ascending chain $I_1subsetneq I_2subsetneq I_3subsetneq cdots$, and the product $IJ$ is obtained as the union: $IJ=cup_kgeq 0 I_k$. So $IJ$ cannot be finitely-generated. QED



            Think of it like this: $I$ is the set of polynomials all of whose monomials end in $x$. Similar for $J$. And then the product $IJ$ is the set of polynomials all of whose monomials have at least one $x$, and end in $y$ --- but what could be in between that $x$ and the last $y$ could be arbitrarily large.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$

















              3












              $begingroup$

              If $I,J$ are two ideals in a commutative ring, the elements of the product $IJ$ aren't necessarily of the form $xy$ where $xin I$, $yin J$. Instead, the elements are sums of such products: thus each element of $IJ$ has the form $sum_i=1^n x_iy_i$ where $x_iin I$ and $y_iin J$.



              You're right that if $I,J$ have given generating sets, say $I=(x_1,ldots,x_m)$ and $J=(y_1,ldots,y_n)$, then $IJ$ is generated (as an ideal) by products $x_iy_j$ where $1leq ileq m$ and $1leq jleq n$. Try to prove this!



              So to show that a product of principal ideals is again principal: your proof isn't quite correct, but it's almost correct. Do you see how to fix it?




              For noncommutative rings:



              I don't think a product of principal ideals is even finitely-generated, let alone principal, even if you only work with one-sided ideals. Keep in mind that if $I$ is the two-sided ideal of $R$ generated by some element $x$, then it's still not true that elements of $I$ have the form $rxs$ for $r,sin R$ --- the elements of $I$ are sums of such products. If you want to work with left ideals only, even then the elements of the product $RxRy$ have the form $rxsy$ for $r,sin R$. There's a pesky "$s$" in the middle of that monomial.



              For example, let $R=mathbfClangle x,yrangle$ be a noncommutative polynomial ring in two variables $x,y$, and consider the left ideals $I=Rx$ and $J=Ry$. Then $IJ=RxRy$ is not finitely-generated as a left ideal: I think this might not be so easy to see, and it involves some combinatorics that I will sweep under the rug.




              Claim: The left ideal $IJ$ is not finitely-generated.




              Proof. Let $I_k$ be the left ideal generated by $m$ for $kgeq 0$ --- what this notation means is that you have $x$, followed by a monomial $m$ of length $leq k$, then ending in a $y$. So for example, $I_3$ contains the monomial $x^3y^2=x(x^2y)y$, but it does not contain the monomial $xy^7=x(y^6)y$ because the "sandwiched" $y^6$ is too long.



              Then the $I_k$'s form a strict ascending chain $I_1subsetneq I_2subsetneq I_3subsetneq cdots$, and the product $IJ$ is obtained as the union: $IJ=cup_kgeq 0 I_k$. So $IJ$ cannot be finitely-generated. QED



              Think of it like this: $I$ is the set of polynomials all of whose monomials end in $x$. Similar for $J$. And then the product $IJ$ is the set of polynomials all of whose monomials have at least one $x$, and end in $y$ --- but what could be in between that $x$ and the last $y$ could be arbitrarily large.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$















                3












                3








                3





                $begingroup$

                If $I,J$ are two ideals in a commutative ring, the elements of the product $IJ$ aren't necessarily of the form $xy$ where $xin I$, $yin J$. Instead, the elements are sums of such products: thus each element of $IJ$ has the form $sum_i=1^n x_iy_i$ where $x_iin I$ and $y_iin J$.



                You're right that if $I,J$ have given generating sets, say $I=(x_1,ldots,x_m)$ and $J=(y_1,ldots,y_n)$, then $IJ$ is generated (as an ideal) by products $x_iy_j$ where $1leq ileq m$ and $1leq jleq n$. Try to prove this!



                So to show that a product of principal ideals is again principal: your proof isn't quite correct, but it's almost correct. Do you see how to fix it?




                For noncommutative rings:



                I don't think a product of principal ideals is even finitely-generated, let alone principal, even if you only work with one-sided ideals. Keep in mind that if $I$ is the two-sided ideal of $R$ generated by some element $x$, then it's still not true that elements of $I$ have the form $rxs$ for $r,sin R$ --- the elements of $I$ are sums of such products. If you want to work with left ideals only, even then the elements of the product $RxRy$ have the form $rxsy$ for $r,sin R$. There's a pesky "$s$" in the middle of that monomial.



                For example, let $R=mathbfClangle x,yrangle$ be a noncommutative polynomial ring in two variables $x,y$, and consider the left ideals $I=Rx$ and $J=Ry$. Then $IJ=RxRy$ is not finitely-generated as a left ideal: I think this might not be so easy to see, and it involves some combinatorics that I will sweep under the rug.




                Claim: The left ideal $IJ$ is not finitely-generated.




                Proof. Let $I_k$ be the left ideal generated by $m$ for $kgeq 0$ --- what this notation means is that you have $x$, followed by a monomial $m$ of length $leq k$, then ending in a $y$. So for example, $I_3$ contains the monomial $x^3y^2=x(x^2y)y$, but it does not contain the monomial $xy^7=x(y^6)y$ because the "sandwiched" $y^6$ is too long.



                Then the $I_k$'s form a strict ascending chain $I_1subsetneq I_2subsetneq I_3subsetneq cdots$, and the product $IJ$ is obtained as the union: $IJ=cup_kgeq 0 I_k$. So $IJ$ cannot be finitely-generated. QED



                Think of it like this: $I$ is the set of polynomials all of whose monomials end in $x$. Similar for $J$. And then the product $IJ$ is the set of polynomials all of whose monomials have at least one $x$, and end in $y$ --- but what could be in between that $x$ and the last $y$ could be arbitrarily large.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$



                If $I,J$ are two ideals in a commutative ring, the elements of the product $IJ$ aren't necessarily of the form $xy$ where $xin I$, $yin J$. Instead, the elements are sums of such products: thus each element of $IJ$ has the form $sum_i=1^n x_iy_i$ where $x_iin I$ and $y_iin J$.



                You're right that if $I,J$ have given generating sets, say $I=(x_1,ldots,x_m)$ and $J=(y_1,ldots,y_n)$, then $IJ$ is generated (as an ideal) by products $x_iy_j$ where $1leq ileq m$ and $1leq jleq n$. Try to prove this!



                So to show that a product of principal ideals is again principal: your proof isn't quite correct, but it's almost correct. Do you see how to fix it?




                For noncommutative rings:



                I don't think a product of principal ideals is even finitely-generated, let alone principal, even if you only work with one-sided ideals. Keep in mind that if $I$ is the two-sided ideal of $R$ generated by some element $x$, then it's still not true that elements of $I$ have the form $rxs$ for $r,sin R$ --- the elements of $I$ are sums of such products. If you want to work with left ideals only, even then the elements of the product $RxRy$ have the form $rxsy$ for $r,sin R$. There's a pesky "$s$" in the middle of that monomial.



                For example, let $R=mathbfClangle x,yrangle$ be a noncommutative polynomial ring in two variables $x,y$, and consider the left ideals $I=Rx$ and $J=Ry$. Then $IJ=RxRy$ is not finitely-generated as a left ideal: I think this might not be so easy to see, and it involves some combinatorics that I will sweep under the rug.




                Claim: The left ideal $IJ$ is not finitely-generated.




                Proof. Let $I_k$ be the left ideal generated by $m$ for $kgeq 0$ --- what this notation means is that you have $x$, followed by a monomial $m$ of length $leq k$, then ending in a $y$. So for example, $I_3$ contains the monomial $x^3y^2=x(x^2y)y$, but it does not contain the monomial $xy^7=x(y^6)y$ because the "sandwiched" $y^6$ is too long.



                Then the $I_k$'s form a strict ascending chain $I_1subsetneq I_2subsetneq I_3subsetneq cdots$, and the product $IJ$ is obtained as the union: $IJ=cup_kgeq 0 I_k$. So $IJ$ cannot be finitely-generated. QED



                Think of it like this: $I$ is the set of polynomials all of whose monomials end in $x$. Similar for $J$. And then the product $IJ$ is the set of polynomials all of whose monomials have at least one $x$, and end in $y$ --- but what could be in between that $x$ and the last $y$ could be arbitrarily large.







                share|cite|improve this answer














                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer








                edited Mar 29 at 20:42

























                answered Mar 29 at 18:39









                EhsaanEhsaan

                1,005514




                1,005514



























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