De-rationalisation of a surd expression $sqrt p - sqrt pq + q$ The Next CEO of Stack OverflowWhat would be the value of $a$ and $b$ in following rational expression?Find all functions $f:mathbbQ^+rightarrowmathbbQ^+$ such that $f(x)+f(y)+2xyf(xy)=fracf(xy)f(x+y)$proving $ sqrt 2 + sqrt 3 $ is irrationalProving that the Calkin-Wilf tree enumerates the rationals.Rationalize a surd $frac11+sqrt2-sqrt3$Rationalising a fraction with a surdRational Numbers near $sqrt 2$Find natural number $0 < n < 30,000$ such that $sqrt[3]5n+sqrt10n$ is rationalProving $sqrt2013^2016+2014^2016$ is irrational$sum_i=1^n (a_isqrtb_i) ne 0$

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De-rationalisation of a surd expression $sqrt p - sqrt pq + q$



The Next CEO of Stack OverflowWhat would be the value of $a$ and $b$ in following rational expression?Find all functions $f:mathbbQ^+rightarrowmathbbQ^+$ such that $f(x)+f(y)+2xyf(xy)=fracf(xy)f(x+y)$proving $ sqrt 2 + sqrt 3 $ is irrationalProving that the Calkin-Wilf tree enumerates the rationals.Rationalize a surd $frac11+sqrt2-sqrt3$Rationalising a fraction with a surdRational Numbers near $sqrt 2$Find natural number $0 < n < 30,000$ such that $sqrt[3]5n+sqrt10n$ is rationalProving $sqrt2013^2016+2014^2016$ is irrational$sum_i=1^n (a_isqrtb_i) ne 0$










2












$begingroup$


Consider two dissimilar surds $sqrt p$ and $sqrt q$. Then the problem asks to find rational numbers $a,b,c$ and $d$ such that for $x=sqrt p + sqrt q$ we can write,
$$
sqrt p - sqrt pq + q = frac ax+bcx+d
$$

Initially, my attempt was straightforward rationalisation:
$$
frac ax+bcx+d=frac a(sqrt p + sqrt q)+bc(sqrt p + sqrt q)+d
$$

$$
=frac (ad-bc)sqrt p + (ad+bc)sqrt q + ac(q-p)+bd2cdsqrt q + c^2(q-p)+d^2
$$

$$
=frac Asqrt p +Bsqrt q + CDsqrt q +E
$$

$$
=frac -AEsqrt p-BEsqrt q+ADsqrt pq+(BDq-CE)D^2q-E^2
$$

Now it appears quite easy to equate the coefficients of surds in the LHS and the RHS, put in the values of the reduced constants $A,B,C,D$ and $E$ so as to get 4 equations in 4 variables $a,b,c$ and $d$ and finally solve them. Trust me, this is an absolutely ridiculous idea. Is there any other way to solve this problem, perhaps a simpler shortcut? Any help would be appreciated.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What if you simply multiply the original requested equation by $c(sqrt p+sqrt q)$ and then match the coefficients (of $1$, $sqrt p$, $sqrt q$ and $sqrtpq$? You can even assume $c=1$.
    $endgroup$
    – Berci
    yesterday
















2












$begingroup$


Consider two dissimilar surds $sqrt p$ and $sqrt q$. Then the problem asks to find rational numbers $a,b,c$ and $d$ such that for $x=sqrt p + sqrt q$ we can write,
$$
sqrt p - sqrt pq + q = frac ax+bcx+d
$$

Initially, my attempt was straightforward rationalisation:
$$
frac ax+bcx+d=frac a(sqrt p + sqrt q)+bc(sqrt p + sqrt q)+d
$$

$$
=frac (ad-bc)sqrt p + (ad+bc)sqrt q + ac(q-p)+bd2cdsqrt q + c^2(q-p)+d^2
$$

$$
=frac Asqrt p +Bsqrt q + CDsqrt q +E
$$

$$
=frac -AEsqrt p-BEsqrt q+ADsqrt pq+(BDq-CE)D^2q-E^2
$$

Now it appears quite easy to equate the coefficients of surds in the LHS and the RHS, put in the values of the reduced constants $A,B,C,D$ and $E$ so as to get 4 equations in 4 variables $a,b,c$ and $d$ and finally solve them. Trust me, this is an absolutely ridiculous idea. Is there any other way to solve this problem, perhaps a simpler shortcut? Any help would be appreciated.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What if you simply multiply the original requested equation by $c(sqrt p+sqrt q)$ and then match the coefficients (of $1$, $sqrt p$, $sqrt q$ and $sqrtpq$? You can even assume $c=1$.
    $endgroup$
    – Berci
    yesterday














2












2








2


2



$begingroup$


Consider two dissimilar surds $sqrt p$ and $sqrt q$. Then the problem asks to find rational numbers $a,b,c$ and $d$ such that for $x=sqrt p + sqrt q$ we can write,
$$
sqrt p - sqrt pq + q = frac ax+bcx+d
$$

Initially, my attempt was straightforward rationalisation:
$$
frac ax+bcx+d=frac a(sqrt p + sqrt q)+bc(sqrt p + sqrt q)+d
$$

$$
=frac (ad-bc)sqrt p + (ad+bc)sqrt q + ac(q-p)+bd2cdsqrt q + c^2(q-p)+d^2
$$

$$
=frac Asqrt p +Bsqrt q + CDsqrt q +E
$$

$$
=frac -AEsqrt p-BEsqrt q+ADsqrt pq+(BDq-CE)D^2q-E^2
$$

Now it appears quite easy to equate the coefficients of surds in the LHS and the RHS, put in the values of the reduced constants $A,B,C,D$ and $E$ so as to get 4 equations in 4 variables $a,b,c$ and $d$ and finally solve them. Trust me, this is an absolutely ridiculous idea. Is there any other way to solve this problem, perhaps a simpler shortcut? Any help would be appreciated.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




Consider two dissimilar surds $sqrt p$ and $sqrt q$. Then the problem asks to find rational numbers $a,b,c$ and $d$ such that for $x=sqrt p + sqrt q$ we can write,
$$
sqrt p - sqrt pq + q = frac ax+bcx+d
$$

Initially, my attempt was straightforward rationalisation:
$$
frac ax+bcx+d=frac a(sqrt p + sqrt q)+bc(sqrt p + sqrt q)+d
$$

$$
=frac (ad-bc)sqrt p + (ad+bc)sqrt q + ac(q-p)+bd2cdsqrt q + c^2(q-p)+d^2
$$

$$
=frac Asqrt p +Bsqrt q + CDsqrt q +E
$$

$$
=frac -AEsqrt p-BEsqrt q+ADsqrt pq+(BDq-CE)D^2q-E^2
$$

Now it appears quite easy to equate the coefficients of surds in the LHS and the RHS, put in the values of the reduced constants $A,B,C,D$ and $E$ so as to get 4 equations in 4 variables $a,b,c$ and $d$ and finally solve them. Trust me, this is an absolutely ridiculous idea. Is there any other way to solve this problem, perhaps a simpler shortcut? Any help would be appreciated.







irrational-numbers rational-numbers






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asked yesterday









Awe Kumar JhaAwe Kumar Jha

572113




572113







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What if you simply multiply the original requested equation by $c(sqrt p+sqrt q)$ and then match the coefficients (of $1$, $sqrt p$, $sqrt q$ and $sqrtpq$? You can even assume $c=1$.
    $endgroup$
    – Berci
    yesterday













  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What if you simply multiply the original requested equation by $c(sqrt p+sqrt q)$ and then match the coefficients (of $1$, $sqrt p$, $sqrt q$ and $sqrtpq$? You can even assume $c=1$.
    $endgroup$
    – Berci
    yesterday








1




1




$begingroup$
What if you simply multiply the original requested equation by $c(sqrt p+sqrt q)$ and then match the coefficients (of $1$, $sqrt p$, $sqrt q$ and $sqrtpq$? You can even assume $c=1$.
$endgroup$
– Berci
yesterday





$begingroup$
What if you simply multiply the original requested equation by $c(sqrt p+sqrt q)$ and then match the coefficients (of $1$, $sqrt p$, $sqrt q$ and $sqrtpq$? You can even assume $c=1$.
$endgroup$
– Berci
yesterday











1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

I may have made a mistake, because I find that it is generally not possible. But I'll write what I have, and then hopefully someone can correct it.



Since $sqrt p$ and $sqrt q$ are dissimilar, any number of the form $k_1 + k_2sqrt p + k_3 sqrt q + k_4sqrtpq$, where $k_iinmathbb Q$, is uniquely determined by the coefficients $k_i$. Using this we see that $c=0$ is impossible, so we can assume without loss of generality that $c=1$ (by dividing through).



Going on Berci's suggestion in the comment, we get:



$$
asqrt p + asqrt q + b
= (sqrt p -sqrt pq + q)(sqrt p + sqrt q + d)
$$

$$
= dsqrt p + (q-p)sqrt q + (1-d)sqrtpq + (p+qd)
$$



We get that $1-d=0$, so $d=1$. But then we get $q-p=a=d=1$, so we only have a solution in the special case $q=p+1$. In this case the solution is



$$
fracx+(p+q)x+1 = fracx+(2p+1)x+1
$$



So, what do you guys think? I hope I haven't simply made an arithmetic error. But since we get four equations in three variables, it seems reasonable that we don't get a solution in general.






share|cite|improve this answer








New contributor




Milten is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






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    2












    $begingroup$

    I may have made a mistake, because I find that it is generally not possible. But I'll write what I have, and then hopefully someone can correct it.



    Since $sqrt p$ and $sqrt q$ are dissimilar, any number of the form $k_1 + k_2sqrt p + k_3 sqrt q + k_4sqrtpq$, where $k_iinmathbb Q$, is uniquely determined by the coefficients $k_i$. Using this we see that $c=0$ is impossible, so we can assume without loss of generality that $c=1$ (by dividing through).



    Going on Berci's suggestion in the comment, we get:



    $$
    asqrt p + asqrt q + b
    = (sqrt p -sqrt pq + q)(sqrt p + sqrt q + d)
    $$

    $$
    = dsqrt p + (q-p)sqrt q + (1-d)sqrtpq + (p+qd)
    $$



    We get that $1-d=0$, so $d=1$. But then we get $q-p=a=d=1$, so we only have a solution in the special case $q=p+1$. In this case the solution is



    $$
    fracx+(p+q)x+1 = fracx+(2p+1)x+1
    $$



    So, what do you guys think? I hope I haven't simply made an arithmetic error. But since we get four equations in three variables, it seems reasonable that we don't get a solution in general.






    share|cite|improve this answer








    New contributor




    Milten is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






    $endgroup$

















      2












      $begingroup$

      I may have made a mistake, because I find that it is generally not possible. But I'll write what I have, and then hopefully someone can correct it.



      Since $sqrt p$ and $sqrt q$ are dissimilar, any number of the form $k_1 + k_2sqrt p + k_3 sqrt q + k_4sqrtpq$, where $k_iinmathbb Q$, is uniquely determined by the coefficients $k_i$. Using this we see that $c=0$ is impossible, so we can assume without loss of generality that $c=1$ (by dividing through).



      Going on Berci's suggestion in the comment, we get:



      $$
      asqrt p + asqrt q + b
      = (sqrt p -sqrt pq + q)(sqrt p + sqrt q + d)
      $$

      $$
      = dsqrt p + (q-p)sqrt q + (1-d)sqrtpq + (p+qd)
      $$



      We get that $1-d=0$, so $d=1$. But then we get $q-p=a=d=1$, so we only have a solution in the special case $q=p+1$. In this case the solution is



      $$
      fracx+(p+q)x+1 = fracx+(2p+1)x+1
      $$



      So, what do you guys think? I hope I haven't simply made an arithmetic error. But since we get four equations in three variables, it seems reasonable that we don't get a solution in general.






      share|cite|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Milten is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






      $endgroup$















        2












        2








        2





        $begingroup$

        I may have made a mistake, because I find that it is generally not possible. But I'll write what I have, and then hopefully someone can correct it.



        Since $sqrt p$ and $sqrt q$ are dissimilar, any number of the form $k_1 + k_2sqrt p + k_3 sqrt q + k_4sqrtpq$, where $k_iinmathbb Q$, is uniquely determined by the coefficients $k_i$. Using this we see that $c=0$ is impossible, so we can assume without loss of generality that $c=1$ (by dividing through).



        Going on Berci's suggestion in the comment, we get:



        $$
        asqrt p + asqrt q + b
        = (sqrt p -sqrt pq + q)(sqrt p + sqrt q + d)
        $$

        $$
        = dsqrt p + (q-p)sqrt q + (1-d)sqrtpq + (p+qd)
        $$



        We get that $1-d=0$, so $d=1$. But then we get $q-p=a=d=1$, so we only have a solution in the special case $q=p+1$. In this case the solution is



        $$
        fracx+(p+q)x+1 = fracx+(2p+1)x+1
        $$



        So, what do you guys think? I hope I haven't simply made an arithmetic error. But since we get four equations in three variables, it seems reasonable that we don't get a solution in general.






        share|cite|improve this answer








        New contributor




        Milten is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






        $endgroup$



        I may have made a mistake, because I find that it is generally not possible. But I'll write what I have, and then hopefully someone can correct it.



        Since $sqrt p$ and $sqrt q$ are dissimilar, any number of the form $k_1 + k_2sqrt p + k_3 sqrt q + k_4sqrtpq$, where $k_iinmathbb Q$, is uniquely determined by the coefficients $k_i$. Using this we see that $c=0$ is impossible, so we can assume without loss of generality that $c=1$ (by dividing through).



        Going on Berci's suggestion in the comment, we get:



        $$
        asqrt p + asqrt q + b
        = (sqrt p -sqrt pq + q)(sqrt p + sqrt q + d)
        $$

        $$
        = dsqrt p + (q-p)sqrt q + (1-d)sqrtpq + (p+qd)
        $$



        We get that $1-d=0$, so $d=1$. But then we get $q-p=a=d=1$, so we only have a solution in the special case $q=p+1$. In this case the solution is



        $$
        fracx+(p+q)x+1 = fracx+(2p+1)x+1
        $$



        So, what do you guys think? I hope I haven't simply made an arithmetic error. But since we get four equations in three variables, it seems reasonable that we don't get a solution in general.







        share|cite|improve this answer








        New contributor




        Milten is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer






        New contributor




        Milten is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        answered yesterday









        MiltenMilten

        1334




        1334




        New contributor




        Milten is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.





        New contributor





        Milten is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






        Milten is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.



























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