FO-definability of the integers in (Q, +, <) The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InGiven real numbers: define integers?Is there a first order formula $varphi[x]$ in $(mathbb Q, +, cdot, 0)$ such that $x≥0$ iff $varphi[x]$?Practice Problems on the Elimination of QuantifiersShow that an elementary equivalent structure of $mathbbR$ and definable from points is Dedekind completeWhy every member of $^*mathbbR$ is infinitely close to some member of $^*mathbbQ$On definable bijections $b:M^nrightarrow M^m$ in an o-minimal structure $mathcalM$.Find a $mathcalL$-formula to fullfill a conditionCan additional predicates “eliminate” nonstandard models of true arithmetic?On understanding nullary relations and the definition of $mathfrak A models P$ for a structure $mathfrak A$ and 0-ary predicate $P$defining 1 with just n+k=l in $BbbN$ and proving identity is the only automorphism in that kind of structuresDefinable sets in infinite structuresDefinability in first order languageFor any pair of definable sets of the same cardinality, is there a definable bijection between them?

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FO-definability of the integers in (Q, +,



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InGiven real numbers: define integers?Is there a first order formula $varphi[x]$ in $(mathbb Q, +, cdot, 0)$ such that $x≥0$ iff $varphi[x]$?Practice Problems on the Elimination of QuantifiersShow that an elementary equivalent structure of $mathbbR$ and definable from points is Dedekind completeWhy every member of $^*mathbbR$ is infinitely close to some member of $^*mathbbQ$On definable bijections $b:M^nrightarrow M^m$ in an o-minimal structure $mathcalM$.Find a $mathcalL$-formula to fullfill a conditionCan additional predicates “eliminate” nonstandard models of true arithmetic?On understanding nullary relations and the definition of $mathfrak A models P$ for a structure $mathfrak A$ and 0-ary predicate $P$defining 1 with just n+k=l in $BbbN$ and proving identity is the only automorphism in that kind of structuresDefinable sets in infinite structuresDefinability in first order languageFor any pair of definable sets of the same cardinality, is there a definable bijection between them?










26












$begingroup$


With $Q$ the set of rational numbers, I'm wondering:




Is the predicate "Int($x$) $equiv$ $x$ is an integer" first-order definable in $(Q, +, <)$ where there is one additional constant symbol for each element of $Q$?




I know this is the case if multiplication is allowed. I guess the fact that $<$ is dense would imply a negative answer to this question, via an EF game maybe; is there a similar structure with a dense order but with Int($x$) FO-definable?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't see how Int is definable even when multiplication is allowed. Do you have a source ?
    $endgroup$
    – mercio
    May 22 '11 at 6:56






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @chandok: this is a famous result of Julia Robinson. JSTOR link
    $endgroup$
    – Chris Eagle
    May 22 '11 at 7:08
















26












$begingroup$


With $Q$ the set of rational numbers, I'm wondering:




Is the predicate "Int($x$) $equiv$ $x$ is an integer" first-order definable in $(Q, +, <)$ where there is one additional constant symbol for each element of $Q$?




I know this is the case if multiplication is allowed. I guess the fact that $<$ is dense would imply a negative answer to this question, via an EF game maybe; is there a similar structure with a dense order but with Int($x$) FO-definable?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't see how Int is definable even when multiplication is allowed. Do you have a source ?
    $endgroup$
    – mercio
    May 22 '11 at 6:56






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @chandok: this is a famous result of Julia Robinson. JSTOR link
    $endgroup$
    – Chris Eagle
    May 22 '11 at 7:08














26












26








26


7



$begingroup$


With $Q$ the set of rational numbers, I'm wondering:




Is the predicate "Int($x$) $equiv$ $x$ is an integer" first-order definable in $(Q, +, <)$ where there is one additional constant symbol for each element of $Q$?




I know this is the case if multiplication is allowed. I guess the fact that $<$ is dense would imply a negative answer to this question, via an EF game maybe; is there a similar structure with a dense order but with Int($x$) FO-definable?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




With $Q$ the set of rational numbers, I'm wondering:




Is the predicate "Int($x$) $equiv$ $x$ is an integer" first-order definable in $(Q, +, <)$ where there is one additional constant symbol for each element of $Q$?




I know this is the case if multiplication is allowed. I guess the fact that $<$ is dense would imply a negative answer to this question, via an EF game maybe; is there a similar structure with a dense order but with Int($x$) FO-definable?







logic model-theory






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Mar 30 at 10:48









YuiTo Cheng

2,3144937




2,3144937










asked May 21 '11 at 22:34









Michaël CadilhacMichaël Cadilhac

451418




451418







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't see how Int is definable even when multiplication is allowed. Do you have a source ?
    $endgroup$
    – mercio
    May 22 '11 at 6:56






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @chandok: this is a famous result of Julia Robinson. JSTOR link
    $endgroup$
    – Chris Eagle
    May 22 '11 at 7:08













  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't see how Int is definable even when multiplication is allowed. Do you have a source ?
    $endgroup$
    – mercio
    May 22 '11 at 6:56






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @chandok: this is a famous result of Julia Robinson. JSTOR link
    $endgroup$
    – Chris Eagle
    May 22 '11 at 7:08








1




1




$begingroup$
I don't see how Int is definable even when multiplication is allowed. Do you have a source ?
$endgroup$
– mercio
May 22 '11 at 6:56




$begingroup$
I don't see how Int is definable even when multiplication is allowed. Do you have a source ?
$endgroup$
– mercio
May 22 '11 at 6:56




5




5




$begingroup$
@chandok: this is a famous result of Julia Robinson. JSTOR link
$endgroup$
– Chris Eagle
May 22 '11 at 7:08





$begingroup$
@chandok: this is a famous result of Julia Robinson. JSTOR link
$endgroup$
– Chris Eagle
May 22 '11 at 7:08











1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















19












$begingroup$

This is a very interesting question.



The answer is no.



First, I claim that the theory of the structure $langlemathbbQ,+,ltrangle$ admits elimination of quantifiers. That is, every formula $varphi(vec x)$ in this language is equivalent over this theory to a quantifier-free formula. This can be proved by a brute-force hands-on induction over formulas. Allow me merely to sketch the argument. It is true already for the atomic formulas, and the property of being equivalent to a quantifier-free formulas is preserved by Boolean connectives. So consider a formula of the form $exists xvarphi(x,vec z)$, where $varphi$ is quantifier-free. We may put $varphi$ in disjunctive normal form and then distribute the quantifier over the disjunct, which reduces to the case where $varphi$ is a conjunction of atomic and negated atomic formulas. We may assume that $x$ appears freely in each of these conjuncts (since otherwise we may remove it from the scope of the quantifier). If a formula of the form $x+y=z$ appears in $varphi$, then we may replace all occurences of $x$ with $z-y$ and thereby eliminate the need to quantify over $x$ (one must also subsequently eliminate the minus sign after the replacing, but this is easy by elementary algebraic operations). We may do this even if $x$ appears multiply, as in $x+x+y=z$, for then we replace $x$ everywhere with $(z-y)/2$, but then clear both the $2$ and the minus sign by elementary algebraic manipulations. Thus, we may assume that equality atomic assertions appear only negatively in $varphi$. All the other assertions merely concern the order. Note that a negated order relation $neg(ult v)$ is equivalent to $vlt uvee v=u$, and we may distribute the quantifier again over this disjunct. So negated order relations do not appear in $varphi$. The atomic order formulas have the form $x+ylt u+v$ and so on. We may cancel similar variables on each side, and so $x$ appears on only one side. By allowing minus, we see that every conjunct formula in $varphi$ says either that $acdot xneq t$, or that $bcdot xlt s$ or that $ult ccdot x$, for some terms $t,s,u$, in which $+$ and $-$ may both appear, and where $a$, $b$ and $c$ are fixed positive integer constants. By temporarily allowing rational constant coefficients, we may move these coefficients to the other side away from $x$. Thus, the assertion $exists x,varphi(x,vec t,vec s,vec u)$ is equivalent to the assertion that every $frac1cu$ is less than every $frac 1b s$. We may then clear the introduced rational constant multiples by multiplying through (which means adding that many times on the other side). Clearly, if such an $x$ exists, then this will be the case, and if this is the case, then there will be $x$'s in between, and so infinitely many, so at least one of them will be unequal to the $t$'s. This final assertion can be re-expressed without minus, and so the original assertion is equivalent to a quantifier-free assertion. So the theory admits elimination of quantifiers.



It now follows that the definable classes are all defined by quantifier-free formulas. By induction, it is easy to see that any such class will be a finite union of intervals, and so the class of integers is not definable.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you very much. This indeed answers my question. I later found a reference which answered this question in a similar way (van Den Dries book on O-minimal structures) but I'd love to see a logic oriented book on the matter; would you know one by any chance?
    $endgroup$
    – Michaël Cadilhac
    May 23 '11 at 17:18











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19












$begingroup$

This is a very interesting question.



The answer is no.



First, I claim that the theory of the structure $langlemathbbQ,+,ltrangle$ admits elimination of quantifiers. That is, every formula $varphi(vec x)$ in this language is equivalent over this theory to a quantifier-free formula. This can be proved by a brute-force hands-on induction over formulas. Allow me merely to sketch the argument. It is true already for the atomic formulas, and the property of being equivalent to a quantifier-free formulas is preserved by Boolean connectives. So consider a formula of the form $exists xvarphi(x,vec z)$, where $varphi$ is quantifier-free. We may put $varphi$ in disjunctive normal form and then distribute the quantifier over the disjunct, which reduces to the case where $varphi$ is a conjunction of atomic and negated atomic formulas. We may assume that $x$ appears freely in each of these conjuncts (since otherwise we may remove it from the scope of the quantifier). If a formula of the form $x+y=z$ appears in $varphi$, then we may replace all occurences of $x$ with $z-y$ and thereby eliminate the need to quantify over $x$ (one must also subsequently eliminate the minus sign after the replacing, but this is easy by elementary algebraic operations). We may do this even if $x$ appears multiply, as in $x+x+y=z$, for then we replace $x$ everywhere with $(z-y)/2$, but then clear both the $2$ and the minus sign by elementary algebraic manipulations. Thus, we may assume that equality atomic assertions appear only negatively in $varphi$. All the other assertions merely concern the order. Note that a negated order relation $neg(ult v)$ is equivalent to $vlt uvee v=u$, and we may distribute the quantifier again over this disjunct. So negated order relations do not appear in $varphi$. The atomic order formulas have the form $x+ylt u+v$ and so on. We may cancel similar variables on each side, and so $x$ appears on only one side. By allowing minus, we see that every conjunct formula in $varphi$ says either that $acdot xneq t$, or that $bcdot xlt s$ or that $ult ccdot x$, for some terms $t,s,u$, in which $+$ and $-$ may both appear, and where $a$, $b$ and $c$ are fixed positive integer constants. By temporarily allowing rational constant coefficients, we may move these coefficients to the other side away from $x$. Thus, the assertion $exists x,varphi(x,vec t,vec s,vec u)$ is equivalent to the assertion that every $frac1cu$ is less than every $frac 1b s$. We may then clear the introduced rational constant multiples by multiplying through (which means adding that many times on the other side). Clearly, if such an $x$ exists, then this will be the case, and if this is the case, then there will be $x$'s in between, and so infinitely many, so at least one of them will be unequal to the $t$'s. This final assertion can be re-expressed without minus, and so the original assertion is equivalent to a quantifier-free assertion. So the theory admits elimination of quantifiers.



It now follows that the definable classes are all defined by quantifier-free formulas. By induction, it is easy to see that any such class will be a finite union of intervals, and so the class of integers is not definable.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you very much. This indeed answers my question. I later found a reference which answered this question in a similar way (van Den Dries book on O-minimal structures) but I'd love to see a logic oriented book on the matter; would you know one by any chance?
    $endgroup$
    – Michaël Cadilhac
    May 23 '11 at 17:18















19












$begingroup$

This is a very interesting question.



The answer is no.



First, I claim that the theory of the structure $langlemathbbQ,+,ltrangle$ admits elimination of quantifiers. That is, every formula $varphi(vec x)$ in this language is equivalent over this theory to a quantifier-free formula. This can be proved by a brute-force hands-on induction over formulas. Allow me merely to sketch the argument. It is true already for the atomic formulas, and the property of being equivalent to a quantifier-free formulas is preserved by Boolean connectives. So consider a formula of the form $exists xvarphi(x,vec z)$, where $varphi$ is quantifier-free. We may put $varphi$ in disjunctive normal form and then distribute the quantifier over the disjunct, which reduces to the case where $varphi$ is a conjunction of atomic and negated atomic formulas. We may assume that $x$ appears freely in each of these conjuncts (since otherwise we may remove it from the scope of the quantifier). If a formula of the form $x+y=z$ appears in $varphi$, then we may replace all occurences of $x$ with $z-y$ and thereby eliminate the need to quantify over $x$ (one must also subsequently eliminate the minus sign after the replacing, but this is easy by elementary algebraic operations). We may do this even if $x$ appears multiply, as in $x+x+y=z$, for then we replace $x$ everywhere with $(z-y)/2$, but then clear both the $2$ and the minus sign by elementary algebraic manipulations. Thus, we may assume that equality atomic assertions appear only negatively in $varphi$. All the other assertions merely concern the order. Note that a negated order relation $neg(ult v)$ is equivalent to $vlt uvee v=u$, and we may distribute the quantifier again over this disjunct. So negated order relations do not appear in $varphi$. The atomic order formulas have the form $x+ylt u+v$ and so on. We may cancel similar variables on each side, and so $x$ appears on only one side. By allowing minus, we see that every conjunct formula in $varphi$ says either that $acdot xneq t$, or that $bcdot xlt s$ or that $ult ccdot x$, for some terms $t,s,u$, in which $+$ and $-$ may both appear, and where $a$, $b$ and $c$ are fixed positive integer constants. By temporarily allowing rational constant coefficients, we may move these coefficients to the other side away from $x$. Thus, the assertion $exists x,varphi(x,vec t,vec s,vec u)$ is equivalent to the assertion that every $frac1cu$ is less than every $frac 1b s$. We may then clear the introduced rational constant multiples by multiplying through (which means adding that many times on the other side). Clearly, if such an $x$ exists, then this will be the case, and if this is the case, then there will be $x$'s in between, and so infinitely many, so at least one of them will be unequal to the $t$'s. This final assertion can be re-expressed without minus, and so the original assertion is equivalent to a quantifier-free assertion. So the theory admits elimination of quantifiers.



It now follows that the definable classes are all defined by quantifier-free formulas. By induction, it is easy to see that any such class will be a finite union of intervals, and so the class of integers is not definable.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you very much. This indeed answers my question. I later found a reference which answered this question in a similar way (van Den Dries book on O-minimal structures) but I'd love to see a logic oriented book on the matter; would you know one by any chance?
    $endgroup$
    – Michaël Cadilhac
    May 23 '11 at 17:18













19












19








19





$begingroup$

This is a very interesting question.



The answer is no.



First, I claim that the theory of the structure $langlemathbbQ,+,ltrangle$ admits elimination of quantifiers. That is, every formula $varphi(vec x)$ in this language is equivalent over this theory to a quantifier-free formula. This can be proved by a brute-force hands-on induction over formulas. Allow me merely to sketch the argument. It is true already for the atomic formulas, and the property of being equivalent to a quantifier-free formulas is preserved by Boolean connectives. So consider a formula of the form $exists xvarphi(x,vec z)$, where $varphi$ is quantifier-free. We may put $varphi$ in disjunctive normal form and then distribute the quantifier over the disjunct, which reduces to the case where $varphi$ is a conjunction of atomic and negated atomic formulas. We may assume that $x$ appears freely in each of these conjuncts (since otherwise we may remove it from the scope of the quantifier). If a formula of the form $x+y=z$ appears in $varphi$, then we may replace all occurences of $x$ with $z-y$ and thereby eliminate the need to quantify over $x$ (one must also subsequently eliminate the minus sign after the replacing, but this is easy by elementary algebraic operations). We may do this even if $x$ appears multiply, as in $x+x+y=z$, for then we replace $x$ everywhere with $(z-y)/2$, but then clear both the $2$ and the minus sign by elementary algebraic manipulations. Thus, we may assume that equality atomic assertions appear only negatively in $varphi$. All the other assertions merely concern the order. Note that a negated order relation $neg(ult v)$ is equivalent to $vlt uvee v=u$, and we may distribute the quantifier again over this disjunct. So negated order relations do not appear in $varphi$. The atomic order formulas have the form $x+ylt u+v$ and so on. We may cancel similar variables on each side, and so $x$ appears on only one side. By allowing minus, we see that every conjunct formula in $varphi$ says either that $acdot xneq t$, or that $bcdot xlt s$ or that $ult ccdot x$, for some terms $t,s,u$, in which $+$ and $-$ may both appear, and where $a$, $b$ and $c$ are fixed positive integer constants. By temporarily allowing rational constant coefficients, we may move these coefficients to the other side away from $x$. Thus, the assertion $exists x,varphi(x,vec t,vec s,vec u)$ is equivalent to the assertion that every $frac1cu$ is less than every $frac 1b s$. We may then clear the introduced rational constant multiples by multiplying through (which means adding that many times on the other side). Clearly, if such an $x$ exists, then this will be the case, and if this is the case, then there will be $x$'s in between, and so infinitely many, so at least one of them will be unequal to the $t$'s. This final assertion can be re-expressed without minus, and so the original assertion is equivalent to a quantifier-free assertion. So the theory admits elimination of quantifiers.



It now follows that the definable classes are all defined by quantifier-free formulas. By induction, it is easy to see that any such class will be a finite union of intervals, and so the class of integers is not definable.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



This is a very interesting question.



The answer is no.



First, I claim that the theory of the structure $langlemathbbQ,+,ltrangle$ admits elimination of quantifiers. That is, every formula $varphi(vec x)$ in this language is equivalent over this theory to a quantifier-free formula. This can be proved by a brute-force hands-on induction over formulas. Allow me merely to sketch the argument. It is true already for the atomic formulas, and the property of being equivalent to a quantifier-free formulas is preserved by Boolean connectives. So consider a formula of the form $exists xvarphi(x,vec z)$, where $varphi$ is quantifier-free. We may put $varphi$ in disjunctive normal form and then distribute the quantifier over the disjunct, which reduces to the case where $varphi$ is a conjunction of atomic and negated atomic formulas. We may assume that $x$ appears freely in each of these conjuncts (since otherwise we may remove it from the scope of the quantifier). If a formula of the form $x+y=z$ appears in $varphi$, then we may replace all occurences of $x$ with $z-y$ and thereby eliminate the need to quantify over $x$ (one must also subsequently eliminate the minus sign after the replacing, but this is easy by elementary algebraic operations). We may do this even if $x$ appears multiply, as in $x+x+y=z$, for then we replace $x$ everywhere with $(z-y)/2$, but then clear both the $2$ and the minus sign by elementary algebraic manipulations. Thus, we may assume that equality atomic assertions appear only negatively in $varphi$. All the other assertions merely concern the order. Note that a negated order relation $neg(ult v)$ is equivalent to $vlt uvee v=u$, and we may distribute the quantifier again over this disjunct. So negated order relations do not appear in $varphi$. The atomic order formulas have the form $x+ylt u+v$ and so on. We may cancel similar variables on each side, and so $x$ appears on only one side. By allowing minus, we see that every conjunct formula in $varphi$ says either that $acdot xneq t$, or that $bcdot xlt s$ or that $ult ccdot x$, for some terms $t,s,u$, in which $+$ and $-$ may both appear, and where $a$, $b$ and $c$ are fixed positive integer constants. By temporarily allowing rational constant coefficients, we may move these coefficients to the other side away from $x$. Thus, the assertion $exists x,varphi(x,vec t,vec s,vec u)$ is equivalent to the assertion that every $frac1cu$ is less than every $frac 1b s$. We may then clear the introduced rational constant multiples by multiplying through (which means adding that many times on the other side). Clearly, if such an $x$ exists, then this will be the case, and if this is the case, then there will be $x$'s in between, and so infinitely many, so at least one of them will be unequal to the $t$'s. This final assertion can be re-expressed without minus, and so the original assertion is equivalent to a quantifier-free assertion. So the theory admits elimination of quantifiers.



It now follows that the definable classes are all defined by quantifier-free formulas. By induction, it is easy to see that any such class will be a finite union of intervals, and so the class of integers is not definable.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited May 22 '11 at 2:09

























answered May 22 '11 at 1:50









JDHJDH

32.8k681147




32.8k681147











  • $begingroup$
    Thank you very much. This indeed answers my question. I later found a reference which answered this question in a similar way (van Den Dries book on O-minimal structures) but I'd love to see a logic oriented book on the matter; would you know one by any chance?
    $endgroup$
    – Michaël Cadilhac
    May 23 '11 at 17:18
















  • $begingroup$
    Thank you very much. This indeed answers my question. I later found a reference which answered this question in a similar way (van Den Dries book on O-minimal structures) but I'd love to see a logic oriented book on the matter; would you know one by any chance?
    $endgroup$
    – Michaël Cadilhac
    May 23 '11 at 17:18















$begingroup$
Thank you very much. This indeed answers my question. I later found a reference which answered this question in a similar way (van Den Dries book on O-minimal structures) but I'd love to see a logic oriented book on the matter; would you know one by any chance?
$endgroup$
– Michaël Cadilhac
May 23 '11 at 17:18




$begingroup$
Thank you very much. This indeed answers my question. I later found a reference which answered this question in a similar way (van Den Dries book on O-minimal structures) but I'd love to see a logic oriented book on the matter; would you know one by any chance?
$endgroup$
– Michaël Cadilhac
May 23 '11 at 17:18

















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