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why is there no order in metric spaces?


On what structural level should one think of $R^3$What's the need of defining notion of distance using norm function in a metric space?Hausdorff distance between metric spacesDifferentiability in metric spacesWhat's the motivation behind metric spaces?What makes metric spaces special?Open Ball in a Metric Space vs. Open Set in a Topological SpaceDetermining shapes in metric spaces?Is it a given that subsets of metric spaces inherit their notions of distance from it?Are there any “spaces” that violate symmetry of metric spaces?Spaces of (complete) separable metric spaces













6












$begingroup$


Why is there no abstract notion of order in the metric spaces?



Surely, if there is a notion of distance there must be a notion of different values. If there is a notion of different values, why can't we specify a well defined order in the metric space to reflect the lowest to greatest values in the space?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    smallest to largest.
    $endgroup$
    – Qwertford
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:18










  • $begingroup$
    How would you define the smallest element in a discrete metric space?
    $endgroup$
    – Paul Plummer
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:23






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Which one is bigger? $sin(x)$ or $cos(x)$ ? What about $sin(fracpi2-x)$ or $cos(fracpi2-x)$?
    $endgroup$
    – N. S.
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:40






  • 6




    $begingroup$
    Pretty much anything can be an element of a set, including functions.
    $endgroup$
    – Sasho Nikolov
    Sep 10 '15 at 12:15






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    you should at least ask for an order that induces the same typology as the metric. otherwise you can order any set (but it is rather counter intuitive)
    $endgroup$
    – user251257
    Sep 10 '15 at 12:30















6












$begingroup$


Why is there no abstract notion of order in the metric spaces?



Surely, if there is a notion of distance there must be a notion of different values. If there is a notion of different values, why can't we specify a well defined order in the metric space to reflect the lowest to greatest values in the space?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    smallest to largest.
    $endgroup$
    – Qwertford
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:18










  • $begingroup$
    How would you define the smallest element in a discrete metric space?
    $endgroup$
    – Paul Plummer
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:23






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Which one is bigger? $sin(x)$ or $cos(x)$ ? What about $sin(fracpi2-x)$ or $cos(fracpi2-x)$?
    $endgroup$
    – N. S.
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:40






  • 6




    $begingroup$
    Pretty much anything can be an element of a set, including functions.
    $endgroup$
    – Sasho Nikolov
    Sep 10 '15 at 12:15






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    you should at least ask for an order that induces the same typology as the metric. otherwise you can order any set (but it is rather counter intuitive)
    $endgroup$
    – user251257
    Sep 10 '15 at 12:30













6












6








6


3



$begingroup$


Why is there no abstract notion of order in the metric spaces?



Surely, if there is a notion of distance there must be a notion of different values. If there is a notion of different values, why can't we specify a well defined order in the metric space to reflect the lowest to greatest values in the space?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Why is there no abstract notion of order in the metric spaces?



Surely, if there is a notion of distance there must be a notion of different values. If there is a notion of different values, why can't we specify a well defined order in the metric space to reflect the lowest to greatest values in the space?







metric-spaces order-theory






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Sep 10 '15 at 12:14









Martin Sleziak

44.9k10122277




44.9k10122277










asked Sep 10 '15 at 11:15









QwertfordQwertford

325212




325212







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    smallest to largest.
    $endgroup$
    – Qwertford
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:18










  • $begingroup$
    How would you define the smallest element in a discrete metric space?
    $endgroup$
    – Paul Plummer
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:23






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Which one is bigger? $sin(x)$ or $cos(x)$ ? What about $sin(fracpi2-x)$ or $cos(fracpi2-x)$?
    $endgroup$
    – N. S.
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:40






  • 6




    $begingroup$
    Pretty much anything can be an element of a set, including functions.
    $endgroup$
    – Sasho Nikolov
    Sep 10 '15 at 12:15






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    you should at least ask for an order that induces the same typology as the metric. otherwise you can order any set (but it is rather counter intuitive)
    $endgroup$
    – user251257
    Sep 10 '15 at 12:30












  • 1




    $begingroup$
    smallest to largest.
    $endgroup$
    – Qwertford
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:18










  • $begingroup$
    How would you define the smallest element in a discrete metric space?
    $endgroup$
    – Paul Plummer
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:23






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Which one is bigger? $sin(x)$ or $cos(x)$ ? What about $sin(fracpi2-x)$ or $cos(fracpi2-x)$?
    $endgroup$
    – N. S.
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:40






  • 6




    $begingroup$
    Pretty much anything can be an element of a set, including functions.
    $endgroup$
    – Sasho Nikolov
    Sep 10 '15 at 12:15






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    you should at least ask for an order that induces the same typology as the metric. otherwise you can order any set (but it is rather counter intuitive)
    $endgroup$
    – user251257
    Sep 10 '15 at 12:30







1




1




$begingroup$
smallest to largest.
$endgroup$
– Qwertford
Sep 10 '15 at 11:18




$begingroup$
smallest to largest.
$endgroup$
– Qwertford
Sep 10 '15 at 11:18












$begingroup$
How would you define the smallest element in a discrete metric space?
$endgroup$
– Paul Plummer
Sep 10 '15 at 11:23




$begingroup$
How would you define the smallest element in a discrete metric space?
$endgroup$
– Paul Plummer
Sep 10 '15 at 11:23




3




3




$begingroup$
Which one is bigger? $sin(x)$ or $cos(x)$ ? What about $sin(fracpi2-x)$ or $cos(fracpi2-x)$?
$endgroup$
– N. S.
Sep 10 '15 at 11:40




$begingroup$
Which one is bigger? $sin(x)$ or $cos(x)$ ? What about $sin(fracpi2-x)$ or $cos(fracpi2-x)$?
$endgroup$
– N. S.
Sep 10 '15 at 11:40




6




6




$begingroup$
Pretty much anything can be an element of a set, including functions.
$endgroup$
– Sasho Nikolov
Sep 10 '15 at 12:15




$begingroup$
Pretty much anything can be an element of a set, including functions.
$endgroup$
– Sasho Nikolov
Sep 10 '15 at 12:15




1




1




$begingroup$
you should at least ask for an order that induces the same typology as the metric. otherwise you can order any set (but it is rather counter intuitive)
$endgroup$
– user251257
Sep 10 '15 at 12:30




$begingroup$
you should at least ask for an order that induces the same typology as the metric. otherwise you can order any set (but it is rather counter intuitive)
$endgroup$
– user251257
Sep 10 '15 at 12:30










8 Answers
8






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$begingroup$

The set of complex numbers $BbbC$ is clearly a metric space under the usual notion of modulus, i.e., $(BbbC,d)$ is a metric space where $d(w,z)=|w-z|=sqrt(w-z)(w-z)^ast$. However, at the same time, $BbbC$ has no total ordering relation that is 'meaningful'. This is especially intuitive if we think of $BbbC$ as a plane analogous to $BbbR^2$. This is a concrete example of a metric space which has no (meaningful) ordering relation.



As of now, I have failed to prove to myself that there does not exist an order that can be constructed on $BbbC$ using only the metric. But my point is that, if such an order exists and is a total order, then it is 'meaningless'. Hence, considering orders constructed just from a metric might be an interesting problem in some specific instances, but may not be a great use of time in the general case, as some metric spaces are important for other, incompatible, reasons.






share|cite|improve this answer











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  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, what do you mean Analagous to $BbbR^2$?
    $endgroup$
    – Qwertford
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:34







  • 9




    $begingroup$
    $mathbbC$ can be totally ordered, but there is no total order that is compatible with the ring structure of $mathbbC$.
    $endgroup$
    – Augustin
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:39










  • $begingroup$
    @Augustin: +1 Yes, I suppose I should have mentioned that. In the end, all metric spaces can be totally ordered. I guess my answer is currently unsatisfactory in that I have not demonstrated that a (unique) total ordering cannot be constructed from the metric space axioms alone.
    $endgroup$
    – Will R
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:44











  • $begingroup$
    @MrMachine: By "analogous to $BbbR^2$ I mean we can imagine the complex numbers as points in a plane, and the plane is typically thought of as the Cartesian product of the real line with itself, i.e., $BbbRtimesBbbR=BbbR^2$.
    $endgroup$
    – Will R
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:50






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    "All metric spaces can be totally ordered." I think you need the axiom of choice. Without choice, does $mathcal P(Bbb R)$ (discrete metric) have a total ordering?
    $endgroup$
    – Akiva Weinberger
    Sep 10 '15 at 14:39


















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There need not be a meaningful such relation on a metric space. The basic reason you omit it is because it by omitting requirements cover up more cases. When talking about metric space we restrict the requirements to only mean that there exists a distance between the elements and nothing more (we do not require that the space has an origin, we do not require that the elements can be added or scaled and so on).



For example apart from the normal cases $mathbb R$ and $mathbb C$, the concept covers a lot of different cases. For example the trivial metric space with only one element, hamming metrics (the number of symbols that differ between two strings), euclid geometrics (that doesn't rely on the existence of an origin) and so on.



If you try to define the order naively by size you will run into the fact that a metric space doesn't have the notion of size either, it's defined in terms of distance between elements. And even if there were (and then it's not merely a metric space, but maybe a normed vector space) you would end up with something that does not fulfill the requirements of an order (you don't have the property that if $ale b$ and $ble a$ then $a=b$).



If you want an ordered metric space, then you should require that and not hope for that all abstract "structures" should conform to your requirements.



Math consists of a zoo of abstract "structures" from the most generic ones to more specialized - you have to choose which one to use in every occation (but if you use more generic one, your conclusions will become more generic).






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  • $begingroup$
    But im saying that a notion of distance exists if and only if a notion of size exists then from that we can make a well defined order.
    $endgroup$
    – Qwertford
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:20






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    No, if you have the metric space $a, b$, where $d(a,b)=1$, which of $a$ and $b$ is then the largest?
    $endgroup$
    – skyking
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:25











  • $begingroup$
    Didn't you use the values of a and b to get d(a,b)=1?
    $endgroup$
    – Qwertford
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:26






  • 1




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    @MrMachine: In this example the metric is defined to take the value $1$ for any two elements in the space. The 'values' $a$ and $b$ are not used to 'calculate' the distance in any way.
    $endgroup$
    – Will R
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:28






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    @MrMachine Perhaps it is useful to know the definition of a metric.
    $endgroup$
    – Servaes
    Sep 10 '15 at 11:42



















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We can certainly derive a metric from certain notions of size (norms), but need not have any notion of size at all to have a metric.



Let $X$ be any set, and for $x,yin X,$ define $$d(x,y)=begincases1 & xne y\0 & x=0.endcases$$ This is a metric on $X$ that tells us when two elements are different, but nothing else.






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    2












    $begingroup$

    Order in itself has little to do with distance. I can order a set of words by alphabetical order. What matters is the order relationship: transitive, asymmetric, etc.



    The reals both have an order and a metric. That makes them awesome. I could impose an order on the unit square by applying a space filling curve to the unit interval. It would be like unraveling a sweater. This order would have nothing to do with distance in $R2$, or anything else that makes two dimensions interesting. The sweater, once unraveled, is no longer a sweater.






    share|cite|improve this answer









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      1












      $begingroup$

      Consider any possible ordering on the points on a circle. You will find that:



      1. it is not invariant under isometries;


      2. some of the sets $x: x<a$
        are not open.


      This tells you that the ordering cannot have so much relation with the metric structure...






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$




















        0












        $begingroup$

        Let's consider the set of all points on the surface of the Earth and measure the distance between two points by the length of the shortest path over the surface. This is a metric space.



        How are the points ordered? Which point is the greatest and which is the least?






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$












        • $begingroup$
          Ordering points by their latitude works just fine. The north pole is the greatest point and the south pole is least point. If you insist on an strict order, you can compare points by their latitude and if they're the same, use the longitude.
          $endgroup$
          – lhf
          Sep 10 '15 at 11:58











        • $begingroup$
          So these points on the surface you express as vectors from the origin?
          $endgroup$
          – Qwertford
          Sep 10 '15 at 11:58






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          @lhf You could also order the points so that Stockholm was the best and Dubuque Iowa was the worst, but that would equally have nothing to do with the metric space. Nobody is claiming that an arbitrary set cannot be ordered in an arbitrary way.
          $endgroup$
          – MJD
          Sep 10 '15 at 12:03






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          @MrMachine You could think of them as vectors form the origin, but why go to so much effort? When someone says "How far is it from Paris to Mount Everest" do you reply "Are you thinking of Paris as a vector from the origin?"
          $endgroup$
          – MJD
          Sep 10 '15 at 12:04






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          @MrMachine: more to the point, the orders given in comments here have pretty much nothing to do with the metric. As such it's not in any way useful to require that every metric space must come equipped with an order (all the usual metric space theorems are true for metric spaces that don't have one), and so we don't. If for some purpose you want to consider a metric space and an order then you just say, "a metric space together with an order" or words to that effect.
          $endgroup$
          – Steve Jessop
          Sep 10 '15 at 16:53



















        0












        $begingroup$

        I think this question suggests an answer addressing whether or not every metric topology is also induced by a linear order. The answer is no. I'll try to sketch a proof of this by means of an example.



        Consider the topological space given by three copies of the closed unit interval where we identify the zeros. This is a metric space. Namely let $I_1=[0,1]times1$ and $I_i=(0,1]timesi$ for $iin 2,3$ and the metric $d$ on $X=cup_i I_i$ be given by $d((x,i),(y,i))=|x-y|$ and $d((x,i),(y,j))=|x+y|$ and $d((0,1),(y,j))=y$ for any $x,yin (0,1]$ and any $ineq j$. See Hedgehog space.



        Suppose that the topology $tau$ induced by $d$ is also generated by some linear order $<$ on $X$. We denote the intervals in $<$ with endpoints $x$ and $y$ by $(x,y)_<$. Consider the point $x_0=(0,1)$. It must be the case that (either to the right or the left of $x_0$, we consider the right) it holds that, for two distinct $i,jin1,2,3$, $(x_0,y)_< cap I_i neq emptyset$ and $(x_0,y)_< cap I_j neq emptyset$ for any $y>x_0$. So let $y_i>x_0$ be a point in $I_i$ and then let $x_0<y_j<y_i$ be a point in $I_j$. The open intervals $(-infty, y_j)$ and $(y_j,+infty)$ partition $x_0cup I_i$ into two open subspaces. However $x_0cup I_i$ is homeomorphic to $[0,1]$ and hence connected. Contradiction.



        It is worth noting that the converse is also not true. Namely, not all topologies induced by a linear order and metrizable. For example the space $[0,omega_1]$, where $omega_1$ denotes the first uncountable ordinal, with the topology induced by ordinal order, is compact but not separable, so it is not a metric space.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$




















          -1












          $begingroup$

          The key point here is:
          Given a metric space $(S,d)$, we fix an element $a in S$.

          Given other two elements $b,cin S$, $d(a,b)=d(a,c) Rightarrow b=c$??
          In most cases, the implication doesn't hold, and the distance does not give an order relation.



          But, for example let $S$ is the set of non negative integers. Then the distance to the zero implies an order relation, because $d(0,b) = d(0,c) Rightarrow b=c$.






          share|cite|improve this answer










          New contributor




          FCardelle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






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            8 Answers
            8






            active

            oldest

            votes








            8 Answers
            8






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

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            active

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            10












            $begingroup$

            The set of complex numbers $BbbC$ is clearly a metric space under the usual notion of modulus, i.e., $(BbbC,d)$ is a metric space where $d(w,z)=|w-z|=sqrt(w-z)(w-z)^ast$. However, at the same time, $BbbC$ has no total ordering relation that is 'meaningful'. This is especially intuitive if we think of $BbbC$ as a plane analogous to $BbbR^2$. This is a concrete example of a metric space which has no (meaningful) ordering relation.



            As of now, I have failed to prove to myself that there does not exist an order that can be constructed on $BbbC$ using only the metric. But my point is that, if such an order exists and is a total order, then it is 'meaningless'. Hence, considering orders constructed just from a metric might be an interesting problem in some specific instances, but may not be a great use of time in the general case, as some metric spaces are important for other, incompatible, reasons.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              Sorry, what do you mean Analagous to $BbbR^2$?
              $endgroup$
              – Qwertford
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:34







            • 9




              $begingroup$
              $mathbbC$ can be totally ordered, but there is no total order that is compatible with the ring structure of $mathbbC$.
              $endgroup$
              – Augustin
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:39










            • $begingroup$
              @Augustin: +1 Yes, I suppose I should have mentioned that. In the end, all metric spaces can be totally ordered. I guess my answer is currently unsatisfactory in that I have not demonstrated that a (unique) total ordering cannot be constructed from the metric space axioms alone.
              $endgroup$
              – Will R
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:44











            • $begingroup$
              @MrMachine: By "analogous to $BbbR^2$ I mean we can imagine the complex numbers as points in a plane, and the plane is typically thought of as the Cartesian product of the real line with itself, i.e., $BbbRtimesBbbR=BbbR^2$.
              $endgroup$
              – Will R
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:50






            • 2




              $begingroup$
              "All metric spaces can be totally ordered." I think you need the axiom of choice. Without choice, does $mathcal P(Bbb R)$ (discrete metric) have a total ordering?
              $endgroup$
              – Akiva Weinberger
              Sep 10 '15 at 14:39















            10












            $begingroup$

            The set of complex numbers $BbbC$ is clearly a metric space under the usual notion of modulus, i.e., $(BbbC,d)$ is a metric space where $d(w,z)=|w-z|=sqrt(w-z)(w-z)^ast$. However, at the same time, $BbbC$ has no total ordering relation that is 'meaningful'. This is especially intuitive if we think of $BbbC$ as a plane analogous to $BbbR^2$. This is a concrete example of a metric space which has no (meaningful) ordering relation.



            As of now, I have failed to prove to myself that there does not exist an order that can be constructed on $BbbC$ using only the metric. But my point is that, if such an order exists and is a total order, then it is 'meaningless'. Hence, considering orders constructed just from a metric might be an interesting problem in some specific instances, but may not be a great use of time in the general case, as some metric spaces are important for other, incompatible, reasons.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              Sorry, what do you mean Analagous to $BbbR^2$?
              $endgroup$
              – Qwertford
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:34







            • 9




              $begingroup$
              $mathbbC$ can be totally ordered, but there is no total order that is compatible with the ring structure of $mathbbC$.
              $endgroup$
              – Augustin
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:39










            • $begingroup$
              @Augustin: +1 Yes, I suppose I should have mentioned that. In the end, all metric spaces can be totally ordered. I guess my answer is currently unsatisfactory in that I have not demonstrated that a (unique) total ordering cannot be constructed from the metric space axioms alone.
              $endgroup$
              – Will R
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:44











            • $begingroup$
              @MrMachine: By "analogous to $BbbR^2$ I mean we can imagine the complex numbers as points in a plane, and the plane is typically thought of as the Cartesian product of the real line with itself, i.e., $BbbRtimesBbbR=BbbR^2$.
              $endgroup$
              – Will R
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:50






            • 2




              $begingroup$
              "All metric spaces can be totally ordered." I think you need the axiom of choice. Without choice, does $mathcal P(Bbb R)$ (discrete metric) have a total ordering?
              $endgroup$
              – Akiva Weinberger
              Sep 10 '15 at 14:39













            10












            10








            10





            $begingroup$

            The set of complex numbers $BbbC$ is clearly a metric space under the usual notion of modulus, i.e., $(BbbC,d)$ is a metric space where $d(w,z)=|w-z|=sqrt(w-z)(w-z)^ast$. However, at the same time, $BbbC$ has no total ordering relation that is 'meaningful'. This is especially intuitive if we think of $BbbC$ as a plane analogous to $BbbR^2$. This is a concrete example of a metric space which has no (meaningful) ordering relation.



            As of now, I have failed to prove to myself that there does not exist an order that can be constructed on $BbbC$ using only the metric. But my point is that, if such an order exists and is a total order, then it is 'meaningless'. Hence, considering orders constructed just from a metric might be an interesting problem in some specific instances, but may not be a great use of time in the general case, as some metric spaces are important for other, incompatible, reasons.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            The set of complex numbers $BbbC$ is clearly a metric space under the usual notion of modulus, i.e., $(BbbC,d)$ is a metric space where $d(w,z)=|w-z|=sqrt(w-z)(w-z)^ast$. However, at the same time, $BbbC$ has no total ordering relation that is 'meaningful'. This is especially intuitive if we think of $BbbC$ as a plane analogous to $BbbR^2$. This is a concrete example of a metric space which has no (meaningful) ordering relation.



            As of now, I have failed to prove to myself that there does not exist an order that can be constructed on $BbbC$ using only the metric. But my point is that, if such an order exists and is a total order, then it is 'meaningless'. Hence, considering orders constructed just from a metric might be an interesting problem in some specific instances, but may not be a great use of time in the general case, as some metric spaces are important for other, incompatible, reasons.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited Sep 10 '15 at 16:52

























            answered Sep 10 '15 at 11:24









            Will RWill R

            6,78231429




            6,78231429











            • $begingroup$
              Sorry, what do you mean Analagous to $BbbR^2$?
              $endgroup$
              – Qwertford
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:34







            • 9




              $begingroup$
              $mathbbC$ can be totally ordered, but there is no total order that is compatible with the ring structure of $mathbbC$.
              $endgroup$
              – Augustin
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:39










            • $begingroup$
              @Augustin: +1 Yes, I suppose I should have mentioned that. In the end, all metric spaces can be totally ordered. I guess my answer is currently unsatisfactory in that I have not demonstrated that a (unique) total ordering cannot be constructed from the metric space axioms alone.
              $endgroup$
              – Will R
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:44











            • $begingroup$
              @MrMachine: By "analogous to $BbbR^2$ I mean we can imagine the complex numbers as points in a plane, and the plane is typically thought of as the Cartesian product of the real line with itself, i.e., $BbbRtimesBbbR=BbbR^2$.
              $endgroup$
              – Will R
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:50






            • 2




              $begingroup$
              "All metric spaces can be totally ordered." I think you need the axiom of choice. Without choice, does $mathcal P(Bbb R)$ (discrete metric) have a total ordering?
              $endgroup$
              – Akiva Weinberger
              Sep 10 '15 at 14:39
















            • $begingroup$
              Sorry, what do you mean Analagous to $BbbR^2$?
              $endgroup$
              – Qwertford
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:34







            • 9




              $begingroup$
              $mathbbC$ can be totally ordered, but there is no total order that is compatible with the ring structure of $mathbbC$.
              $endgroup$
              – Augustin
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:39










            • $begingroup$
              @Augustin: +1 Yes, I suppose I should have mentioned that. In the end, all metric spaces can be totally ordered. I guess my answer is currently unsatisfactory in that I have not demonstrated that a (unique) total ordering cannot be constructed from the metric space axioms alone.
              $endgroup$
              – Will R
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:44











            • $begingroup$
              @MrMachine: By "analogous to $BbbR^2$ I mean we can imagine the complex numbers as points in a plane, and the plane is typically thought of as the Cartesian product of the real line with itself, i.e., $BbbRtimesBbbR=BbbR^2$.
              $endgroup$
              – Will R
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:50






            • 2




              $begingroup$
              "All metric spaces can be totally ordered." I think you need the axiom of choice. Without choice, does $mathcal P(Bbb R)$ (discrete metric) have a total ordering?
              $endgroup$
              – Akiva Weinberger
              Sep 10 '15 at 14:39















            $begingroup$
            Sorry, what do you mean Analagous to $BbbR^2$?
            $endgroup$
            – Qwertford
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:34





            $begingroup$
            Sorry, what do you mean Analagous to $BbbR^2$?
            $endgroup$
            – Qwertford
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:34





            9




            9




            $begingroup$
            $mathbbC$ can be totally ordered, but there is no total order that is compatible with the ring structure of $mathbbC$.
            $endgroup$
            – Augustin
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:39




            $begingroup$
            $mathbbC$ can be totally ordered, but there is no total order that is compatible with the ring structure of $mathbbC$.
            $endgroup$
            – Augustin
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:39












            $begingroup$
            @Augustin: +1 Yes, I suppose I should have mentioned that. In the end, all metric spaces can be totally ordered. I guess my answer is currently unsatisfactory in that I have not demonstrated that a (unique) total ordering cannot be constructed from the metric space axioms alone.
            $endgroup$
            – Will R
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:44





            $begingroup$
            @Augustin: +1 Yes, I suppose I should have mentioned that. In the end, all metric spaces can be totally ordered. I guess my answer is currently unsatisfactory in that I have not demonstrated that a (unique) total ordering cannot be constructed from the metric space axioms alone.
            $endgroup$
            – Will R
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:44













            $begingroup$
            @MrMachine: By "analogous to $BbbR^2$ I mean we can imagine the complex numbers as points in a plane, and the plane is typically thought of as the Cartesian product of the real line with itself, i.e., $BbbRtimesBbbR=BbbR^2$.
            $endgroup$
            – Will R
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:50




            $begingroup$
            @MrMachine: By "analogous to $BbbR^2$ I mean we can imagine the complex numbers as points in a plane, and the plane is typically thought of as the Cartesian product of the real line with itself, i.e., $BbbRtimesBbbR=BbbR^2$.
            $endgroup$
            – Will R
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:50




            2




            2




            $begingroup$
            "All metric spaces can be totally ordered." I think you need the axiom of choice. Without choice, does $mathcal P(Bbb R)$ (discrete metric) have a total ordering?
            $endgroup$
            – Akiva Weinberger
            Sep 10 '15 at 14:39




            $begingroup$
            "All metric spaces can be totally ordered." I think you need the axiom of choice. Without choice, does $mathcal P(Bbb R)$ (discrete metric) have a total ordering?
            $endgroup$
            – Akiva Weinberger
            Sep 10 '15 at 14:39











            8












            $begingroup$

            There need not be a meaningful such relation on a metric space. The basic reason you omit it is because it by omitting requirements cover up more cases. When talking about metric space we restrict the requirements to only mean that there exists a distance between the elements and nothing more (we do not require that the space has an origin, we do not require that the elements can be added or scaled and so on).



            For example apart from the normal cases $mathbb R$ and $mathbb C$, the concept covers a lot of different cases. For example the trivial metric space with only one element, hamming metrics (the number of symbols that differ between two strings), euclid geometrics (that doesn't rely on the existence of an origin) and so on.



            If you try to define the order naively by size you will run into the fact that a metric space doesn't have the notion of size either, it's defined in terms of distance between elements. And even if there were (and then it's not merely a metric space, but maybe a normed vector space) you would end up with something that does not fulfill the requirements of an order (you don't have the property that if $ale b$ and $ble a$ then $a=b$).



            If you want an ordered metric space, then you should require that and not hope for that all abstract "structures" should conform to your requirements.



            Math consists of a zoo of abstract "structures" from the most generic ones to more specialized - you have to choose which one to use in every occation (but if you use more generic one, your conclusions will become more generic).






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              But im saying that a notion of distance exists if and only if a notion of size exists then from that we can make a well defined order.
              $endgroup$
              – Qwertford
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:20






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              No, if you have the metric space $a, b$, where $d(a,b)=1$, which of $a$ and $b$ is then the largest?
              $endgroup$
              – skyking
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:25











            • $begingroup$
              Didn't you use the values of a and b to get d(a,b)=1?
              $endgroup$
              – Qwertford
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:26






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @MrMachine: In this example the metric is defined to take the value $1$ for any two elements in the space. The 'values' $a$ and $b$ are not used to 'calculate' the distance in any way.
              $endgroup$
              – Will R
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:28






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @MrMachine Perhaps it is useful to know the definition of a metric.
              $endgroup$
              – Servaes
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:42
















            8












            $begingroup$

            There need not be a meaningful such relation on a metric space. The basic reason you omit it is because it by omitting requirements cover up more cases. When talking about metric space we restrict the requirements to only mean that there exists a distance between the elements and nothing more (we do not require that the space has an origin, we do not require that the elements can be added or scaled and so on).



            For example apart from the normal cases $mathbb R$ and $mathbb C$, the concept covers a lot of different cases. For example the trivial metric space with only one element, hamming metrics (the number of symbols that differ between two strings), euclid geometrics (that doesn't rely on the existence of an origin) and so on.



            If you try to define the order naively by size you will run into the fact that a metric space doesn't have the notion of size either, it's defined in terms of distance between elements. And even if there were (and then it's not merely a metric space, but maybe a normed vector space) you would end up with something that does not fulfill the requirements of an order (you don't have the property that if $ale b$ and $ble a$ then $a=b$).



            If you want an ordered metric space, then you should require that and not hope for that all abstract "structures" should conform to your requirements.



            Math consists of a zoo of abstract "structures" from the most generic ones to more specialized - you have to choose which one to use in every occation (but if you use more generic one, your conclusions will become more generic).






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              But im saying that a notion of distance exists if and only if a notion of size exists then from that we can make a well defined order.
              $endgroup$
              – Qwertford
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:20






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              No, if you have the metric space $a, b$, where $d(a,b)=1$, which of $a$ and $b$ is then the largest?
              $endgroup$
              – skyking
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:25











            • $begingroup$
              Didn't you use the values of a and b to get d(a,b)=1?
              $endgroup$
              – Qwertford
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:26






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @MrMachine: In this example the metric is defined to take the value $1$ for any two elements in the space. The 'values' $a$ and $b$ are not used to 'calculate' the distance in any way.
              $endgroup$
              – Will R
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:28






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @MrMachine Perhaps it is useful to know the definition of a metric.
              $endgroup$
              – Servaes
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:42














            8












            8








            8





            $begingroup$

            There need not be a meaningful such relation on a metric space. The basic reason you omit it is because it by omitting requirements cover up more cases. When talking about metric space we restrict the requirements to only mean that there exists a distance between the elements and nothing more (we do not require that the space has an origin, we do not require that the elements can be added or scaled and so on).



            For example apart from the normal cases $mathbb R$ and $mathbb C$, the concept covers a lot of different cases. For example the trivial metric space with only one element, hamming metrics (the number of symbols that differ between two strings), euclid geometrics (that doesn't rely on the existence of an origin) and so on.



            If you try to define the order naively by size you will run into the fact that a metric space doesn't have the notion of size either, it's defined in terms of distance between elements. And even if there were (and then it's not merely a metric space, but maybe a normed vector space) you would end up with something that does not fulfill the requirements of an order (you don't have the property that if $ale b$ and $ble a$ then $a=b$).



            If you want an ordered metric space, then you should require that and not hope for that all abstract "structures" should conform to your requirements.



            Math consists of a zoo of abstract "structures" from the most generic ones to more specialized - you have to choose which one to use in every occation (but if you use more generic one, your conclusions will become more generic).






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            There need not be a meaningful such relation on a metric space. The basic reason you omit it is because it by omitting requirements cover up more cases. When talking about metric space we restrict the requirements to only mean that there exists a distance between the elements and nothing more (we do not require that the space has an origin, we do not require that the elements can be added or scaled and so on).



            For example apart from the normal cases $mathbb R$ and $mathbb C$, the concept covers a lot of different cases. For example the trivial metric space with only one element, hamming metrics (the number of symbols that differ between two strings), euclid geometrics (that doesn't rely on the existence of an origin) and so on.



            If you try to define the order naively by size you will run into the fact that a metric space doesn't have the notion of size either, it's defined in terms of distance between elements. And even if there were (and then it's not merely a metric space, but maybe a normed vector space) you would end up with something that does not fulfill the requirements of an order (you don't have the property that if $ale b$ and $ble a$ then $a=b$).



            If you want an ordered metric space, then you should require that and not hope for that all abstract "structures" should conform to your requirements.



            Math consists of a zoo of abstract "structures" from the most generic ones to more specialized - you have to choose which one to use in every occation (but if you use more generic one, your conclusions will become more generic).







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited Sep 10 '15 at 11:41

























            answered Sep 10 '15 at 11:19









            skykingskyking

            14.4k1930




            14.4k1930











            • $begingroup$
              But im saying that a notion of distance exists if and only if a notion of size exists then from that we can make a well defined order.
              $endgroup$
              – Qwertford
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:20






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              No, if you have the metric space $a, b$, where $d(a,b)=1$, which of $a$ and $b$ is then the largest?
              $endgroup$
              – skyking
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:25











            • $begingroup$
              Didn't you use the values of a and b to get d(a,b)=1?
              $endgroup$
              – Qwertford
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:26






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @MrMachine: In this example the metric is defined to take the value $1$ for any two elements in the space. The 'values' $a$ and $b$ are not used to 'calculate' the distance in any way.
              $endgroup$
              – Will R
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:28






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @MrMachine Perhaps it is useful to know the definition of a metric.
              $endgroup$
              – Servaes
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:42

















            • $begingroup$
              But im saying that a notion of distance exists if and only if a notion of size exists then from that we can make a well defined order.
              $endgroup$
              – Qwertford
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:20






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              No, if you have the metric space $a, b$, where $d(a,b)=1$, which of $a$ and $b$ is then the largest?
              $endgroup$
              – skyking
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:25











            • $begingroup$
              Didn't you use the values of a and b to get d(a,b)=1?
              $endgroup$
              – Qwertford
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:26






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @MrMachine: In this example the metric is defined to take the value $1$ for any two elements in the space. The 'values' $a$ and $b$ are not used to 'calculate' the distance in any way.
              $endgroup$
              – Will R
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:28






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @MrMachine Perhaps it is useful to know the definition of a metric.
              $endgroup$
              – Servaes
              Sep 10 '15 at 11:42
















            $begingroup$
            But im saying that a notion of distance exists if and only if a notion of size exists then from that we can make a well defined order.
            $endgroup$
            – Qwertford
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:20




            $begingroup$
            But im saying that a notion of distance exists if and only if a notion of size exists then from that we can make a well defined order.
            $endgroup$
            – Qwertford
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:20




            3




            3




            $begingroup$
            No, if you have the metric space $a, b$, where $d(a,b)=1$, which of $a$ and $b$ is then the largest?
            $endgroup$
            – skyking
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:25





            $begingroup$
            No, if you have the metric space $a, b$, where $d(a,b)=1$, which of $a$ and $b$ is then the largest?
            $endgroup$
            – skyking
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:25













            $begingroup$
            Didn't you use the values of a and b to get d(a,b)=1?
            $endgroup$
            – Qwertford
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:26




            $begingroup$
            Didn't you use the values of a and b to get d(a,b)=1?
            $endgroup$
            – Qwertford
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:26




            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            @MrMachine: In this example the metric is defined to take the value $1$ for any two elements in the space. The 'values' $a$ and $b$ are not used to 'calculate' the distance in any way.
            $endgroup$
            – Will R
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:28




            $begingroup$
            @MrMachine: In this example the metric is defined to take the value $1$ for any two elements in the space. The 'values' $a$ and $b$ are not used to 'calculate' the distance in any way.
            $endgroup$
            – Will R
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:28




            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            @MrMachine Perhaps it is useful to know the definition of a metric.
            $endgroup$
            – Servaes
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:42





            $begingroup$
            @MrMachine Perhaps it is useful to know the definition of a metric.
            $endgroup$
            – Servaes
            Sep 10 '15 at 11:42












            4












            $begingroup$

            We can certainly derive a metric from certain notions of size (norms), but need not have any notion of size at all to have a metric.



            Let $X$ be any set, and for $x,yin X,$ define $$d(x,y)=begincases1 & xne y\0 & x=0.endcases$$ This is a metric on $X$ that tells us when two elements are different, but nothing else.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$

















              4












              $begingroup$

              We can certainly derive a metric from certain notions of size (norms), but need not have any notion of size at all to have a metric.



              Let $X$ be any set, and for $x,yin X,$ define $$d(x,y)=begincases1 & xne y\0 & x=0.endcases$$ This is a metric on $X$ that tells us when two elements are different, but nothing else.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$















                4












                4








                4





                $begingroup$

                We can certainly derive a metric from certain notions of size (norms), but need not have any notion of size at all to have a metric.



                Let $X$ be any set, and for $x,yin X,$ define $$d(x,y)=begincases1 & xne y\0 & x=0.endcases$$ This is a metric on $X$ that tells us when two elements are different, but nothing else.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$



                We can certainly derive a metric from certain notions of size (norms), but need not have any notion of size at all to have a metric.



                Let $X$ be any set, and for $x,yin X,$ define $$d(x,y)=begincases1 & xne y\0 & x=0.endcases$$ This is a metric on $X$ that tells us when two elements are different, but nothing else.







                share|cite|improve this answer














                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer








                edited Mar 4 '18 at 15:31

























                answered Sep 10 '15 at 18:31









                Cameron BuieCameron Buie

                86.3k773161




                86.3k773161





















                    2












                    $begingroup$

                    Order in itself has little to do with distance. I can order a set of words by alphabetical order. What matters is the order relationship: transitive, asymmetric, etc.



                    The reals both have an order and a metric. That makes them awesome. I could impose an order on the unit square by applying a space filling curve to the unit interval. It would be like unraveling a sweater. This order would have nothing to do with distance in $R2$, or anything else that makes two dimensions interesting. The sweater, once unraveled, is no longer a sweater.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$

















                      2












                      $begingroup$

                      Order in itself has little to do with distance. I can order a set of words by alphabetical order. What matters is the order relationship: transitive, asymmetric, etc.



                      The reals both have an order and a metric. That makes them awesome. I could impose an order on the unit square by applying a space filling curve to the unit interval. It would be like unraveling a sweater. This order would have nothing to do with distance in $R2$, or anything else that makes two dimensions interesting. The sweater, once unraveled, is no longer a sweater.






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$















                        2












                        2








                        2





                        $begingroup$

                        Order in itself has little to do with distance. I can order a set of words by alphabetical order. What matters is the order relationship: transitive, asymmetric, etc.



                        The reals both have an order and a metric. That makes them awesome. I could impose an order on the unit square by applying a space filling curve to the unit interval. It would be like unraveling a sweater. This order would have nothing to do with distance in $R2$, or anything else that makes two dimensions interesting. The sweater, once unraveled, is no longer a sweater.






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$



                        Order in itself has little to do with distance. I can order a set of words by alphabetical order. What matters is the order relationship: transitive, asymmetric, etc.



                        The reals both have an order and a metric. That makes them awesome. I could impose an order on the unit square by applying a space filling curve to the unit interval. It would be like unraveling a sweater. This order would have nothing to do with distance in $R2$, or anything else that makes two dimensions interesting. The sweater, once unraveled, is no longer a sweater.







                        share|cite|improve this answer












                        share|cite|improve this answer



                        share|cite|improve this answer










                        answered Sep 10 '15 at 16:54









                        PlacidiaPlacidia

                        1485




                        1485





















                            1












                            $begingroup$

                            Consider any possible ordering on the points on a circle. You will find that:



                            1. it is not invariant under isometries;


                            2. some of the sets $x: x<a$
                              are not open.


                            This tells you that the ordering cannot have so much relation with the metric structure...






                            share|cite|improve this answer











                            $endgroup$

















                              1












                              $begingroup$

                              Consider any possible ordering on the points on a circle. You will find that:



                              1. it is not invariant under isometries;


                              2. some of the sets $x: x<a$
                                are not open.


                              This tells you that the ordering cannot have so much relation with the metric structure...






                              share|cite|improve this answer











                              $endgroup$















                                1












                                1








                                1





                                $begingroup$

                                Consider any possible ordering on the points on a circle. You will find that:



                                1. it is not invariant under isometries;


                                2. some of the sets $x: x<a$
                                  are not open.


                                This tells you that the ordering cannot have so much relation with the metric structure...






                                share|cite|improve this answer











                                $endgroup$



                                Consider any possible ordering on the points on a circle. You will find that:



                                1. it is not invariant under isometries;


                                2. some of the sets $x: x<a$
                                  are not open.


                                This tells you that the ordering cannot have so much relation with the metric structure...







                                share|cite|improve this answer














                                share|cite|improve this answer



                                share|cite|improve this answer








                                edited Oct 20 '15 at 12:02

























                                answered Sep 10 '15 at 18:14









                                Emanuele PaoliniEmanuele Paolini

                                17.9k22052




                                17.9k22052





















                                    0












                                    $begingroup$

                                    Let's consider the set of all points on the surface of the Earth and measure the distance between two points by the length of the shortest path over the surface. This is a metric space.



                                    How are the points ordered? Which point is the greatest and which is the least?






                                    share|cite|improve this answer











                                    $endgroup$












                                    • $begingroup$
                                      Ordering points by their latitude works just fine. The north pole is the greatest point and the south pole is least point. If you insist on an strict order, you can compare points by their latitude and if they're the same, use the longitude.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – lhf
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 11:58











                                    • $begingroup$
                                      So these points on the surface you express as vectors from the origin?
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Qwertford
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 11:58






                                    • 3




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @lhf You could also order the points so that Stockholm was the best and Dubuque Iowa was the worst, but that would equally have nothing to do with the metric space. Nobody is claiming that an arbitrary set cannot be ordered in an arbitrary way.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – MJD
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 12:03






                                    • 2




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @MrMachine You could think of them as vectors form the origin, but why go to so much effort? When someone says "How far is it from Paris to Mount Everest" do you reply "Are you thinking of Paris as a vector from the origin?"
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – MJD
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 12:04






                                    • 3




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @MrMachine: more to the point, the orders given in comments here have pretty much nothing to do with the metric. As such it's not in any way useful to require that every metric space must come equipped with an order (all the usual metric space theorems are true for metric spaces that don't have one), and so we don't. If for some purpose you want to consider a metric space and an order then you just say, "a metric space together with an order" or words to that effect.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Steve Jessop
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 16:53
















                                    0












                                    $begingroup$

                                    Let's consider the set of all points on the surface of the Earth and measure the distance between two points by the length of the shortest path over the surface. This is a metric space.



                                    How are the points ordered? Which point is the greatest and which is the least?






                                    share|cite|improve this answer











                                    $endgroup$












                                    • $begingroup$
                                      Ordering points by their latitude works just fine. The north pole is the greatest point and the south pole is least point. If you insist on an strict order, you can compare points by their latitude and if they're the same, use the longitude.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – lhf
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 11:58











                                    • $begingroup$
                                      So these points on the surface you express as vectors from the origin?
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Qwertford
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 11:58






                                    • 3




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @lhf You could also order the points so that Stockholm was the best and Dubuque Iowa was the worst, but that would equally have nothing to do with the metric space. Nobody is claiming that an arbitrary set cannot be ordered in an arbitrary way.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – MJD
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 12:03






                                    • 2




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @MrMachine You could think of them as vectors form the origin, but why go to so much effort? When someone says "How far is it from Paris to Mount Everest" do you reply "Are you thinking of Paris as a vector from the origin?"
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – MJD
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 12:04






                                    • 3




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @MrMachine: more to the point, the orders given in comments here have pretty much nothing to do with the metric. As such it's not in any way useful to require that every metric space must come equipped with an order (all the usual metric space theorems are true for metric spaces that don't have one), and so we don't. If for some purpose you want to consider a metric space and an order then you just say, "a metric space together with an order" or words to that effect.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Steve Jessop
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 16:53














                                    0












                                    0








                                    0





                                    $begingroup$

                                    Let's consider the set of all points on the surface of the Earth and measure the distance between two points by the length of the shortest path over the surface. This is a metric space.



                                    How are the points ordered? Which point is the greatest and which is the least?






                                    share|cite|improve this answer











                                    $endgroup$



                                    Let's consider the set of all points on the surface of the Earth and measure the distance between two points by the length of the shortest path over the surface. This is a metric space.



                                    How are the points ordered? Which point is the greatest and which is the least?







                                    share|cite|improve this answer














                                    share|cite|improve this answer



                                    share|cite|improve this answer








                                    answered Sep 10 '15 at 11:52


























                                    community wiki





                                    MJD












                                    • $begingroup$
                                      Ordering points by their latitude works just fine. The north pole is the greatest point and the south pole is least point. If you insist on an strict order, you can compare points by their latitude and if they're the same, use the longitude.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – lhf
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 11:58











                                    • $begingroup$
                                      So these points on the surface you express as vectors from the origin?
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Qwertford
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 11:58






                                    • 3




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @lhf You could also order the points so that Stockholm was the best and Dubuque Iowa was the worst, but that would equally have nothing to do with the metric space. Nobody is claiming that an arbitrary set cannot be ordered in an arbitrary way.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – MJD
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 12:03






                                    • 2




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @MrMachine You could think of them as vectors form the origin, but why go to so much effort? When someone says "How far is it from Paris to Mount Everest" do you reply "Are you thinking of Paris as a vector from the origin?"
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – MJD
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 12:04






                                    • 3




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @MrMachine: more to the point, the orders given in comments here have pretty much nothing to do with the metric. As such it's not in any way useful to require that every metric space must come equipped with an order (all the usual metric space theorems are true for metric spaces that don't have one), and so we don't. If for some purpose you want to consider a metric space and an order then you just say, "a metric space together with an order" or words to that effect.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Steve Jessop
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 16:53

















                                    • $begingroup$
                                      Ordering points by their latitude works just fine. The north pole is the greatest point and the south pole is least point. If you insist on an strict order, you can compare points by their latitude and if they're the same, use the longitude.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – lhf
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 11:58











                                    • $begingroup$
                                      So these points on the surface you express as vectors from the origin?
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Qwertford
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 11:58






                                    • 3




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @lhf You could also order the points so that Stockholm was the best and Dubuque Iowa was the worst, but that would equally have nothing to do with the metric space. Nobody is claiming that an arbitrary set cannot be ordered in an arbitrary way.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – MJD
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 12:03






                                    • 2




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @MrMachine You could think of them as vectors form the origin, but why go to so much effort? When someone says "How far is it from Paris to Mount Everest" do you reply "Are you thinking of Paris as a vector from the origin?"
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – MJD
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 12:04






                                    • 3




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @MrMachine: more to the point, the orders given in comments here have pretty much nothing to do with the metric. As such it's not in any way useful to require that every metric space must come equipped with an order (all the usual metric space theorems are true for metric spaces that don't have one), and so we don't. If for some purpose you want to consider a metric space and an order then you just say, "a metric space together with an order" or words to that effect.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Steve Jessop
                                      Sep 10 '15 at 16:53
















                                    $begingroup$
                                    Ordering points by their latitude works just fine. The north pole is the greatest point and the south pole is least point. If you insist on an strict order, you can compare points by their latitude and if they're the same, use the longitude.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – lhf
                                    Sep 10 '15 at 11:58





                                    $begingroup$
                                    Ordering points by their latitude works just fine. The north pole is the greatest point and the south pole is least point. If you insist on an strict order, you can compare points by their latitude and if they're the same, use the longitude.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – lhf
                                    Sep 10 '15 at 11:58













                                    $begingroup$
                                    So these points on the surface you express as vectors from the origin?
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – Qwertford
                                    Sep 10 '15 at 11:58




                                    $begingroup$
                                    So these points on the surface you express as vectors from the origin?
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – Qwertford
                                    Sep 10 '15 at 11:58




                                    3




                                    3




                                    $begingroup$
                                    @lhf You could also order the points so that Stockholm was the best and Dubuque Iowa was the worst, but that would equally have nothing to do with the metric space. Nobody is claiming that an arbitrary set cannot be ordered in an arbitrary way.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – MJD
                                    Sep 10 '15 at 12:03




                                    $begingroup$
                                    @lhf You could also order the points so that Stockholm was the best and Dubuque Iowa was the worst, but that would equally have nothing to do with the metric space. Nobody is claiming that an arbitrary set cannot be ordered in an arbitrary way.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – MJD
                                    Sep 10 '15 at 12:03




                                    2




                                    2




                                    $begingroup$
                                    @MrMachine You could think of them as vectors form the origin, but why go to so much effort? When someone says "How far is it from Paris to Mount Everest" do you reply "Are you thinking of Paris as a vector from the origin?"
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – MJD
                                    Sep 10 '15 at 12:04




                                    $begingroup$
                                    @MrMachine You could think of them as vectors form the origin, but why go to so much effort? When someone says "How far is it from Paris to Mount Everest" do you reply "Are you thinking of Paris as a vector from the origin?"
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – MJD
                                    Sep 10 '15 at 12:04




                                    3




                                    3




                                    $begingroup$
                                    @MrMachine: more to the point, the orders given in comments here have pretty much nothing to do with the metric. As such it's not in any way useful to require that every metric space must come equipped with an order (all the usual metric space theorems are true for metric spaces that don't have one), and so we don't. If for some purpose you want to consider a metric space and an order then you just say, "a metric space together with an order" or words to that effect.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – Steve Jessop
                                    Sep 10 '15 at 16:53





                                    $begingroup$
                                    @MrMachine: more to the point, the orders given in comments here have pretty much nothing to do with the metric. As such it's not in any way useful to require that every metric space must come equipped with an order (all the usual metric space theorems are true for metric spaces that don't have one), and so we don't. If for some purpose you want to consider a metric space and an order then you just say, "a metric space together with an order" or words to that effect.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – Steve Jessop
                                    Sep 10 '15 at 16:53












                                    0












                                    $begingroup$

                                    I think this question suggests an answer addressing whether or not every metric topology is also induced by a linear order. The answer is no. I'll try to sketch a proof of this by means of an example.



                                    Consider the topological space given by three copies of the closed unit interval where we identify the zeros. This is a metric space. Namely let $I_1=[0,1]times1$ and $I_i=(0,1]timesi$ for $iin 2,3$ and the metric $d$ on $X=cup_i I_i$ be given by $d((x,i),(y,i))=|x-y|$ and $d((x,i),(y,j))=|x+y|$ and $d((0,1),(y,j))=y$ for any $x,yin (0,1]$ and any $ineq j$. See Hedgehog space.



                                    Suppose that the topology $tau$ induced by $d$ is also generated by some linear order $<$ on $X$. We denote the intervals in $<$ with endpoints $x$ and $y$ by $(x,y)_<$. Consider the point $x_0=(0,1)$. It must be the case that (either to the right or the left of $x_0$, we consider the right) it holds that, for two distinct $i,jin1,2,3$, $(x_0,y)_< cap I_i neq emptyset$ and $(x_0,y)_< cap I_j neq emptyset$ for any $y>x_0$. So let $y_i>x_0$ be a point in $I_i$ and then let $x_0<y_j<y_i$ be a point in $I_j$. The open intervals $(-infty, y_j)$ and $(y_j,+infty)$ partition $x_0cup I_i$ into two open subspaces. However $x_0cup I_i$ is homeomorphic to $[0,1]$ and hence connected. Contradiction.



                                    It is worth noting that the converse is also not true. Namely, not all topologies induced by a linear order and metrizable. For example the space $[0,omega_1]$, where $omega_1$ denotes the first uncountable ordinal, with the topology induced by ordinal order, is compact but not separable, so it is not a metric space.






                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$

















                                      0












                                      $begingroup$

                                      I think this question suggests an answer addressing whether or not every metric topology is also induced by a linear order. The answer is no. I'll try to sketch a proof of this by means of an example.



                                      Consider the topological space given by three copies of the closed unit interval where we identify the zeros. This is a metric space. Namely let $I_1=[0,1]times1$ and $I_i=(0,1]timesi$ for $iin 2,3$ and the metric $d$ on $X=cup_i I_i$ be given by $d((x,i),(y,i))=|x-y|$ and $d((x,i),(y,j))=|x+y|$ and $d((0,1),(y,j))=y$ for any $x,yin (0,1]$ and any $ineq j$. See Hedgehog space.



                                      Suppose that the topology $tau$ induced by $d$ is also generated by some linear order $<$ on $X$. We denote the intervals in $<$ with endpoints $x$ and $y$ by $(x,y)_<$. Consider the point $x_0=(0,1)$. It must be the case that (either to the right or the left of $x_0$, we consider the right) it holds that, for two distinct $i,jin1,2,3$, $(x_0,y)_< cap I_i neq emptyset$ and $(x_0,y)_< cap I_j neq emptyset$ for any $y>x_0$. So let $y_i>x_0$ be a point in $I_i$ and then let $x_0<y_j<y_i$ be a point in $I_j$. The open intervals $(-infty, y_j)$ and $(y_j,+infty)$ partition $x_0cup I_i$ into two open subspaces. However $x_0cup I_i$ is homeomorphic to $[0,1]$ and hence connected. Contradiction.



                                      It is worth noting that the converse is also not true. Namely, not all topologies induced by a linear order and metrizable. For example the space $[0,omega_1]$, where $omega_1$ denotes the first uncountable ordinal, with the topology induced by ordinal order, is compact but not separable, so it is not a metric space.






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$















                                        0












                                        0








                                        0





                                        $begingroup$

                                        I think this question suggests an answer addressing whether or not every metric topology is also induced by a linear order. The answer is no. I'll try to sketch a proof of this by means of an example.



                                        Consider the topological space given by three copies of the closed unit interval where we identify the zeros. This is a metric space. Namely let $I_1=[0,1]times1$ and $I_i=(0,1]timesi$ for $iin 2,3$ and the metric $d$ on $X=cup_i I_i$ be given by $d((x,i),(y,i))=|x-y|$ and $d((x,i),(y,j))=|x+y|$ and $d((0,1),(y,j))=y$ for any $x,yin (0,1]$ and any $ineq j$. See Hedgehog space.



                                        Suppose that the topology $tau$ induced by $d$ is also generated by some linear order $<$ on $X$. We denote the intervals in $<$ with endpoints $x$ and $y$ by $(x,y)_<$. Consider the point $x_0=(0,1)$. It must be the case that (either to the right or the left of $x_0$, we consider the right) it holds that, for two distinct $i,jin1,2,3$, $(x_0,y)_< cap I_i neq emptyset$ and $(x_0,y)_< cap I_j neq emptyset$ for any $y>x_0$. So let $y_i>x_0$ be a point in $I_i$ and then let $x_0<y_j<y_i$ be a point in $I_j$. The open intervals $(-infty, y_j)$ and $(y_j,+infty)$ partition $x_0cup I_i$ into two open subspaces. However $x_0cup I_i$ is homeomorphic to $[0,1]$ and hence connected. Contradiction.



                                        It is worth noting that the converse is also not true. Namely, not all topologies induced by a linear order and metrizable. For example the space $[0,omega_1]$, where $omega_1$ denotes the first uncountable ordinal, with the topology induced by ordinal order, is compact but not separable, so it is not a metric space.






                                        share|cite|improve this answer









                                        $endgroup$



                                        I think this question suggests an answer addressing whether or not every metric topology is also induced by a linear order. The answer is no. I'll try to sketch a proof of this by means of an example.



                                        Consider the topological space given by three copies of the closed unit interval where we identify the zeros. This is a metric space. Namely let $I_1=[0,1]times1$ and $I_i=(0,1]timesi$ for $iin 2,3$ and the metric $d$ on $X=cup_i I_i$ be given by $d((x,i),(y,i))=|x-y|$ and $d((x,i),(y,j))=|x+y|$ and $d((0,1),(y,j))=y$ for any $x,yin (0,1]$ and any $ineq j$. See Hedgehog space.



                                        Suppose that the topology $tau$ induced by $d$ is also generated by some linear order $<$ on $X$. We denote the intervals in $<$ with endpoints $x$ and $y$ by $(x,y)_<$. Consider the point $x_0=(0,1)$. It must be the case that (either to the right or the left of $x_0$, we consider the right) it holds that, for two distinct $i,jin1,2,3$, $(x_0,y)_< cap I_i neq emptyset$ and $(x_0,y)_< cap I_j neq emptyset$ for any $y>x_0$. So let $y_i>x_0$ be a point in $I_i$ and then let $x_0<y_j<y_i$ be a point in $I_j$. The open intervals $(-infty, y_j)$ and $(y_j,+infty)$ partition $x_0cup I_i$ into two open subspaces. However $x_0cup I_i$ is homeomorphic to $[0,1]$ and hence connected. Contradiction.



                                        It is worth noting that the converse is also not true. Namely, not all topologies induced by a linear order and metrizable. For example the space $[0,omega_1]$, where $omega_1$ denotes the first uncountable ordinal, with the topology induced by ordinal order, is compact but not separable, so it is not a metric space.







                                        share|cite|improve this answer












                                        share|cite|improve this answer



                                        share|cite|improve this answer










                                        answered Mar 29 '18 at 20:48









                                        AnguepaAnguepa

                                        1,396819




                                        1,396819





















                                            -1












                                            $begingroup$

                                            The key point here is:
                                            Given a metric space $(S,d)$, we fix an element $a in S$.

                                            Given other two elements $b,cin S$, $d(a,b)=d(a,c) Rightarrow b=c$??
                                            In most cases, the implication doesn't hold, and the distance does not give an order relation.



                                            But, for example let $S$ is the set of non negative integers. Then the distance to the zero implies an order relation, because $d(0,b) = d(0,c) Rightarrow b=c$.






                                            share|cite|improve this answer










                                            New contributor




                                            FCardelle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                            Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                            $endgroup$

















                                              -1












                                              $begingroup$

                                              The key point here is:
                                              Given a metric space $(S,d)$, we fix an element $a in S$.

                                              Given other two elements $b,cin S$, $d(a,b)=d(a,c) Rightarrow b=c$??
                                              In most cases, the implication doesn't hold, and the distance does not give an order relation.



                                              But, for example let $S$ is the set of non negative integers. Then the distance to the zero implies an order relation, because $d(0,b) = d(0,c) Rightarrow b=c$.






                                              share|cite|improve this answer










                                              New contributor




                                              FCardelle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                              Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                              $endgroup$















                                                -1












                                                -1








                                                -1





                                                $begingroup$

                                                The key point here is:
                                                Given a metric space $(S,d)$, we fix an element $a in S$.

                                                Given other two elements $b,cin S$, $d(a,b)=d(a,c) Rightarrow b=c$??
                                                In most cases, the implication doesn't hold, and the distance does not give an order relation.



                                                But, for example let $S$ is the set of non negative integers. Then the distance to the zero implies an order relation, because $d(0,b) = d(0,c) Rightarrow b=c$.






                                                share|cite|improve this answer










                                                New contributor




                                                FCardelle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                                $endgroup$



                                                The key point here is:
                                                Given a metric space $(S,d)$, we fix an element $a in S$.

                                                Given other two elements $b,cin S$, $d(a,b)=d(a,c) Rightarrow b=c$??
                                                In most cases, the implication doesn't hold, and the distance does not give an order relation.



                                                But, for example let $S$ is the set of non negative integers. Then the distance to the zero implies an order relation, because $d(0,b) = d(0,c) Rightarrow b=c$.







                                                share|cite|improve this answer










                                                New contributor




                                                FCardelle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                                share|cite|improve this answer



                                                share|cite|improve this answer








                                                edited Mar 28 at 17:40









                                                Alan Muniz

                                                2,61311030




                                                2,61311030






                                                New contributor




                                                FCardelle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                                answered Mar 28 at 15:36









                                                FCardelleFCardelle

                                                82




                                                82




                                                New contributor




                                                FCardelle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                Check out our Code of Conduct.





                                                New contributor





                                                FCardelle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                                FCardelle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                Check out our Code of Conduct.



























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