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What goes wrong when we try to make a binary partition of a countable set?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)What is the meaning of “uncountably infinite” within countable models of set theory?What is the largest set for which its set of self bijections is countable?Product of all numbers in a given interval $[n,m]$What is wrong with this proof that the power set of natural numbers is countable?What is the 'biggest' countable infinite set?Why is the set of all infinite binary sequences uncountable but the set of all natural numbers are countable?Partition an infinite set into countable sets










1












$begingroup$


Let $f$ be a function that maps an interval $[a, b]$ to some irrational number $r in [a, b]$ that roughly splits the interval in half (e.g. both sides have at least 1/3 of the mass).
Suppose we then index each $q in mathbbQ cap [0, 1]$ with an infinite bitstring as follows: starting with the interval $i = [0, 1]$, write a $0$ if $q < f(i)$ or a $1$ if $q > f(i)$, and then recurse on the relevant subinterval to obtain the next bit, and so on.



This clearly gives an injection $g : mathbbQ cap [0, 1] to mathbbB^infty$. My question is: what is
$$sup_n text for every prefix $p$ of length $n$, there is a bitstring with prefix $p$ in $mathoprange(g)$?$$
Clearly it is $infty$ since any finite number is too small, but also $aleph_0$ is "too big'' since this would imply that $mathbbQ cap [0, 1]$ is uncountable. How should I understand this? When we write $sup_n = infty$, is this a fundamentally different use of the symbol $infty$ that doesn't correspond to an ordinal?



I am somewhat worried that I'm running into Axiom-of-Choice weirdness in thinking about this, since AC is needed to define $f$.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    I don't fully understand the details of your question, but they don't seem relevant. If you have a set of naturals that contains arbitrarily large ones, then the (analysis) $sup$ of that set is certainly $infty$. $infty$ is essentially never used to denote an ordinal, especially when dealing with suprema in which case you're probably dealing with extended reals. And if you want to consider cardinals like $aleph_0$, I don't understand how $aleph_0$, the cardinal for countably infinite things, could imply something is uncountable.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark S.
    Mar 31 at 20:25















1












$begingroup$


Let $f$ be a function that maps an interval $[a, b]$ to some irrational number $r in [a, b]$ that roughly splits the interval in half (e.g. both sides have at least 1/3 of the mass).
Suppose we then index each $q in mathbbQ cap [0, 1]$ with an infinite bitstring as follows: starting with the interval $i = [0, 1]$, write a $0$ if $q < f(i)$ or a $1$ if $q > f(i)$, and then recurse on the relevant subinterval to obtain the next bit, and so on.



This clearly gives an injection $g : mathbbQ cap [0, 1] to mathbbB^infty$. My question is: what is
$$sup_n text for every prefix $p$ of length $n$, there is a bitstring with prefix $p$ in $mathoprange(g)$?$$
Clearly it is $infty$ since any finite number is too small, but also $aleph_0$ is "too big'' since this would imply that $mathbbQ cap [0, 1]$ is uncountable. How should I understand this? When we write $sup_n = infty$, is this a fundamentally different use of the symbol $infty$ that doesn't correspond to an ordinal?



I am somewhat worried that I'm running into Axiom-of-Choice weirdness in thinking about this, since AC is needed to define $f$.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    I don't fully understand the details of your question, but they don't seem relevant. If you have a set of naturals that contains arbitrarily large ones, then the (analysis) $sup$ of that set is certainly $infty$. $infty$ is essentially never used to denote an ordinal, especially when dealing with suprema in which case you're probably dealing with extended reals. And if you want to consider cardinals like $aleph_0$, I don't understand how $aleph_0$, the cardinal for countably infinite things, could imply something is uncountable.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark S.
    Mar 31 at 20:25













1












1








1





$begingroup$


Let $f$ be a function that maps an interval $[a, b]$ to some irrational number $r in [a, b]$ that roughly splits the interval in half (e.g. both sides have at least 1/3 of the mass).
Suppose we then index each $q in mathbbQ cap [0, 1]$ with an infinite bitstring as follows: starting with the interval $i = [0, 1]$, write a $0$ if $q < f(i)$ or a $1$ if $q > f(i)$, and then recurse on the relevant subinterval to obtain the next bit, and so on.



This clearly gives an injection $g : mathbbQ cap [0, 1] to mathbbB^infty$. My question is: what is
$$sup_n text for every prefix $p$ of length $n$, there is a bitstring with prefix $p$ in $mathoprange(g)$?$$
Clearly it is $infty$ since any finite number is too small, but also $aleph_0$ is "too big'' since this would imply that $mathbbQ cap [0, 1]$ is uncountable. How should I understand this? When we write $sup_n = infty$, is this a fundamentally different use of the symbol $infty$ that doesn't correspond to an ordinal?



I am somewhat worried that I'm running into Axiom-of-Choice weirdness in thinking about this, since AC is needed to define $f$.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Let $f$ be a function that maps an interval $[a, b]$ to some irrational number $r in [a, b]$ that roughly splits the interval in half (e.g. both sides have at least 1/3 of the mass).
Suppose we then index each $q in mathbbQ cap [0, 1]$ with an infinite bitstring as follows: starting with the interval $i = [0, 1]$, write a $0$ if $q < f(i)$ or a $1$ if $q > f(i)$, and then recurse on the relevant subinterval to obtain the next bit, and so on.



This clearly gives an injection $g : mathbbQ cap [0, 1] to mathbbB^infty$. My question is: what is
$$sup_n text for every prefix $p$ of length $n$, there is a bitstring with prefix $p$ in $mathoprange(g)$?$$
Clearly it is $infty$ since any finite number is too small, but also $aleph_0$ is "too big'' since this would imply that $mathbbQ cap [0, 1]$ is uncountable. How should I understand this? When we write $sup_n = infty$, is this a fundamentally different use of the symbol $infty$ that doesn't correspond to an ordinal?



I am somewhat worried that I'm running into Axiom-of-Choice weirdness in thinking about this, since AC is needed to define $f$.







infinity






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Mar 31 at 22:39









Asaf Karagila

308k33441775




308k33441775










asked Mar 31 at 19:46









GMBGMB

2,2141227




2,2141227











  • $begingroup$
    I don't fully understand the details of your question, but they don't seem relevant. If you have a set of naturals that contains arbitrarily large ones, then the (analysis) $sup$ of that set is certainly $infty$. $infty$ is essentially never used to denote an ordinal, especially when dealing with suprema in which case you're probably dealing with extended reals. And if you want to consider cardinals like $aleph_0$, I don't understand how $aleph_0$, the cardinal for countably infinite things, could imply something is uncountable.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark S.
    Mar 31 at 20:25
















  • $begingroup$
    I don't fully understand the details of your question, but they don't seem relevant. If you have a set of naturals that contains arbitrarily large ones, then the (analysis) $sup$ of that set is certainly $infty$. $infty$ is essentially never used to denote an ordinal, especially when dealing with suprema in which case you're probably dealing with extended reals. And if you want to consider cardinals like $aleph_0$, I don't understand how $aleph_0$, the cardinal for countably infinite things, could imply something is uncountable.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark S.
    Mar 31 at 20:25















$begingroup$
I don't fully understand the details of your question, but they don't seem relevant. If you have a set of naturals that contains arbitrarily large ones, then the (analysis) $sup$ of that set is certainly $infty$. $infty$ is essentially never used to denote an ordinal, especially when dealing with suprema in which case you're probably dealing with extended reals. And if you want to consider cardinals like $aleph_0$, I don't understand how $aleph_0$, the cardinal for countably infinite things, could imply something is uncountable.
$endgroup$
– Mark S.
Mar 31 at 20:25




$begingroup$
I don't fully understand the details of your question, but they don't seem relevant. If you have a set of naturals that contains arbitrarily large ones, then the (analysis) $sup$ of that set is certainly $infty$. $infty$ is essentially never used to denote an ordinal, especially when dealing with suprema in which case you're probably dealing with extended reals. And if you want to consider cardinals like $aleph_0$, I don't understand how $aleph_0$, the cardinal for countably infinite things, could imply something is uncountable.
$endgroup$
– Mark S.
Mar 31 at 20:25










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oldest

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$begingroup$

To say that the supremum in your question is $infty$ means that $infty$ is the least upper bound of the lengths $n$ described there. It does not mean that $infty$ itself is one of those lengths. (It's the same idea assaying that $1$ is the supremum of the open interval $(0,1)$ doesn't mean that $1$ is itself a member of that interval.)






share|cite|improve this answer









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    $begingroup$

    To say that the supremum in your question is $infty$ means that $infty$ is the least upper bound of the lengths $n$ described there. It does not mean that $infty$ itself is one of those lengths. (It's the same idea assaying that $1$ is the supremum of the open interval $(0,1)$ doesn't mean that $1$ is itself a member of that interval.)






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$

















      2












      $begingroup$

      To say that the supremum in your question is $infty$ means that $infty$ is the least upper bound of the lengths $n$ described there. It does not mean that $infty$ itself is one of those lengths. (It's the same idea assaying that $1$ is the supremum of the open interval $(0,1)$ doesn't mean that $1$ is itself a member of that interval.)






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$















        2












        2








        2





        $begingroup$

        To say that the supremum in your question is $infty$ means that $infty$ is the least upper bound of the lengths $n$ described there. It does not mean that $infty$ itself is one of those lengths. (It's the same idea assaying that $1$ is the supremum of the open interval $(0,1)$ doesn't mean that $1$ is itself a member of that interval.)






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        To say that the supremum in your question is $infty$ means that $infty$ is the least upper bound of the lengths $n$ described there. It does not mean that $infty$ itself is one of those lengths. (It's the same idea assaying that $1$ is the supremum of the open interval $(0,1)$ doesn't mean that $1$ is itself a member of that interval.)







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Mar 31 at 20:20









        Andreas BlassAndreas Blass

        50.6k452109




        50.6k452109



























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