Pairs of disjoint sets in outer measure definition [closed] Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Constructing Outer MeasureOuter measure discontinuous from belowProve that $mu_star(A) = fracsup A - inf A2$ is outer measure.outer measure and measurable setsInequality with outer measureWhy is the outer measure of these sets the same?Lebesgue outer measure of irrationals by definitionOuter measure in a finite measure space.Outer measure inequality

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Pairs of disjoint sets in outer measure definition [closed]



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Constructing Outer MeasureOuter measure discontinuous from belowProve that $mu_star(A) = fracsup A - inf A2$ is outer measure.outer measure and measurable setsInequality with outer measureWhy is the outer measure of these sets the same?Lebesgue outer measure of irrationals by definitionOuter measure in a finite measure space.Outer measure inequality










0












$begingroup$


Why the definition of the outer measure $mu^*$:



$$mu^*(A) = infBiglsum_n=1^infty mu(A_n): A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n, A_n in mathcal A,; n in mathbb NBigr$$



is wrong when $A_i cap A_j not= emptyset$, $i not = j$?



Can someone help me to show that?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$



closed as unclear what you're asking by Kavi Rama Murthy, Javi, William, José Carlos Santos, vonbrand Apr 1 at 16:04


Please clarify your specific problem or add additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it’s hard to tell exactly what you're asking. See the How to Ask page for help clarifying this question. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.













  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Can rephrase your question. As it stands I don't have any idea what you are asking.
    $endgroup$
    – Kavi Rama Murthy
    Apr 1 at 7:27










  • $begingroup$
    Why the definition of outer measure (showed above) is only for pairwise disjoint sets?
    $endgroup$
    – Philip
    Apr 1 at 7:29










  • $begingroup$
    In the formula for $mu^*(A)$ the sets $A_i$ are not disjoint.
    $endgroup$
    – Kavi Rama Murthy
    Apr 1 at 7:32











  • $begingroup$
    The formula is for outer measure, and by measure theory $A_i$ are pairwise disjoint. But my question is why? Why I cannot use it for not disjoint sets?
    $endgroup$
    – Philip
    Apr 1 at 7:36










  • $begingroup$
    In the usual definition of outer measure you don't take the sets to be disjoint. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_measure
    $endgroup$
    – Kavi Rama Murthy
    Apr 1 at 7:37
















0












$begingroup$


Why the definition of the outer measure $mu^*$:



$$mu^*(A) = infBiglsum_n=1^infty mu(A_n): A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n, A_n in mathcal A,; n in mathbb NBigr$$



is wrong when $A_i cap A_j not= emptyset$, $i not = j$?



Can someone help me to show that?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$



closed as unclear what you're asking by Kavi Rama Murthy, Javi, William, José Carlos Santos, vonbrand Apr 1 at 16:04


Please clarify your specific problem or add additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it’s hard to tell exactly what you're asking. See the How to Ask page for help clarifying this question. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.













  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Can rephrase your question. As it stands I don't have any idea what you are asking.
    $endgroup$
    – Kavi Rama Murthy
    Apr 1 at 7:27










  • $begingroup$
    Why the definition of outer measure (showed above) is only for pairwise disjoint sets?
    $endgroup$
    – Philip
    Apr 1 at 7:29










  • $begingroup$
    In the formula for $mu^*(A)$ the sets $A_i$ are not disjoint.
    $endgroup$
    – Kavi Rama Murthy
    Apr 1 at 7:32











  • $begingroup$
    The formula is for outer measure, and by measure theory $A_i$ are pairwise disjoint. But my question is why? Why I cannot use it for not disjoint sets?
    $endgroup$
    – Philip
    Apr 1 at 7:36










  • $begingroup$
    In the usual definition of outer measure you don't take the sets to be disjoint. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_measure
    $endgroup$
    – Kavi Rama Murthy
    Apr 1 at 7:37














0












0








0





$begingroup$


Why the definition of the outer measure $mu^*$:



$$mu^*(A) = infBiglsum_n=1^infty mu(A_n): A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n, A_n in mathcal A,; n in mathbb NBigr$$



is wrong when $A_i cap A_j not= emptyset$, $i not = j$?



Can someone help me to show that?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Why the definition of the outer measure $mu^*$:



$$mu^*(A) = infBiglsum_n=1^infty mu(A_n): A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n, A_n in mathcal A,; n in mathbb NBigr$$



is wrong when $A_i cap A_j not= emptyset$, $i not = j$?



Can someone help me to show that?







measure-theory






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Apr 1 at 7:32









Eric Wofsey

193k14221352




193k14221352










asked Apr 1 at 7:25









PhilipPhilip

917




917




closed as unclear what you're asking by Kavi Rama Murthy, Javi, William, José Carlos Santos, vonbrand Apr 1 at 16:04


Please clarify your specific problem or add additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it’s hard to tell exactly what you're asking. See the How to Ask page for help clarifying this question. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.









closed as unclear what you're asking by Kavi Rama Murthy, Javi, William, José Carlos Santos, vonbrand Apr 1 at 16:04


Please clarify your specific problem or add additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it’s hard to tell exactly what you're asking. See the How to Ask page for help clarifying this question. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.









  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Can rephrase your question. As it stands I don't have any idea what you are asking.
    $endgroup$
    – Kavi Rama Murthy
    Apr 1 at 7:27










  • $begingroup$
    Why the definition of outer measure (showed above) is only for pairwise disjoint sets?
    $endgroup$
    – Philip
    Apr 1 at 7:29










  • $begingroup$
    In the formula for $mu^*(A)$ the sets $A_i$ are not disjoint.
    $endgroup$
    – Kavi Rama Murthy
    Apr 1 at 7:32











  • $begingroup$
    The formula is for outer measure, and by measure theory $A_i$ are pairwise disjoint. But my question is why? Why I cannot use it for not disjoint sets?
    $endgroup$
    – Philip
    Apr 1 at 7:36










  • $begingroup$
    In the usual definition of outer measure you don't take the sets to be disjoint. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_measure
    $endgroup$
    – Kavi Rama Murthy
    Apr 1 at 7:37













  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Can rephrase your question. As it stands I don't have any idea what you are asking.
    $endgroup$
    – Kavi Rama Murthy
    Apr 1 at 7:27










  • $begingroup$
    Why the definition of outer measure (showed above) is only for pairwise disjoint sets?
    $endgroup$
    – Philip
    Apr 1 at 7:29










  • $begingroup$
    In the formula for $mu^*(A)$ the sets $A_i$ are not disjoint.
    $endgroup$
    – Kavi Rama Murthy
    Apr 1 at 7:32











  • $begingroup$
    The formula is for outer measure, and by measure theory $A_i$ are pairwise disjoint. But my question is why? Why I cannot use it for not disjoint sets?
    $endgroup$
    – Philip
    Apr 1 at 7:36










  • $begingroup$
    In the usual definition of outer measure you don't take the sets to be disjoint. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_measure
    $endgroup$
    – Kavi Rama Murthy
    Apr 1 at 7:37








1




1




$begingroup$
Can rephrase your question. As it stands I don't have any idea what you are asking.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
Apr 1 at 7:27




$begingroup$
Can rephrase your question. As it stands I don't have any idea what you are asking.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
Apr 1 at 7:27












$begingroup$
Why the definition of outer measure (showed above) is only for pairwise disjoint sets?
$endgroup$
– Philip
Apr 1 at 7:29




$begingroup$
Why the definition of outer measure (showed above) is only for pairwise disjoint sets?
$endgroup$
– Philip
Apr 1 at 7:29












$begingroup$
In the formula for $mu^*(A)$ the sets $A_i$ are not disjoint.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
Apr 1 at 7:32





$begingroup$
In the formula for $mu^*(A)$ the sets $A_i$ are not disjoint.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
Apr 1 at 7:32













$begingroup$
The formula is for outer measure, and by measure theory $A_i$ are pairwise disjoint. But my question is why? Why I cannot use it for not disjoint sets?
$endgroup$
– Philip
Apr 1 at 7:36




$begingroup$
The formula is for outer measure, and by measure theory $A_i$ are pairwise disjoint. But my question is why? Why I cannot use it for not disjoint sets?
$endgroup$
– Philip
Apr 1 at 7:36












$begingroup$
In the usual definition of outer measure you don't take the sets to be disjoint. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_measure
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
Apr 1 at 7:37





$begingroup$
In the usual definition of outer measure you don't take the sets to be disjoint. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_measure
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
Apr 1 at 7:37











1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















1












$begingroup$

I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but the the following may be insightful. Suppose I also define,



$$barmu^*(A) = infBiglsum_n=1^infty mu(A_n): A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n, A_n in mathcal A; textare pairwise disjoint Bigr$$



I claim that $mu^* = bar mu^*.$



Since we are taking the infimum over a smaller collection of sets,we have $mu^*(A) leq barmu^*(A)$ for all $A subset X$ (here $X$ is your measure space).



Conversely let $A_n in mathcal A$ be a sequence such that $A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n.$ Then we define $B_n in mathcal A$ as $B_1 = A_1$ and for $n geq 2,$
$$ B_n+1 = A_n+1 setminus bigcup_i=1^n A_i.$$
Observe by construction that $B_n$ are pairwise disjoint and we have,
$$ bigcup_n=1^infty A_n = bigcup_n=1^infty B_n. $$
Therefore we have,
$$ barmu^*(A) leq sum_n=1^infty mu(B_n) leq sum_n=1^infty mu(A_n). $$
Taking the infimum over all sequences $A_n in mathcal A$ we deduce that,
$$ barmu^*(A) leq mu^*(A). $$
Hence they are equal.




Although these two definitions are the same, the reason we usually don't take pairwise disjoint sequences when defining the outer measure is because it tends to be simpler to work with. If we have a covering of our set $A$ we want to compute the outer measure of, we don't need to go through this construction to get a disjoint covering each time.



Also in practice the technical construction of the outer measure is not too important, beyond the fact that it can be constructed. The important point is that it satisfies certain properties as outlined on the wikipedia page, and the provided definition is the minimal thing that works.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



















    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes








    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    1












    $begingroup$

    I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but the the following may be insightful. Suppose I also define,



    $$barmu^*(A) = infBiglsum_n=1^infty mu(A_n): A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n, A_n in mathcal A; textare pairwise disjoint Bigr$$



    I claim that $mu^* = bar mu^*.$



    Since we are taking the infimum over a smaller collection of sets,we have $mu^*(A) leq barmu^*(A)$ for all $A subset X$ (here $X$ is your measure space).



    Conversely let $A_n in mathcal A$ be a sequence such that $A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n.$ Then we define $B_n in mathcal A$ as $B_1 = A_1$ and for $n geq 2,$
    $$ B_n+1 = A_n+1 setminus bigcup_i=1^n A_i.$$
    Observe by construction that $B_n$ are pairwise disjoint and we have,
    $$ bigcup_n=1^infty A_n = bigcup_n=1^infty B_n. $$
    Therefore we have,
    $$ barmu^*(A) leq sum_n=1^infty mu(B_n) leq sum_n=1^infty mu(A_n). $$
    Taking the infimum over all sequences $A_n in mathcal A$ we deduce that,
    $$ barmu^*(A) leq mu^*(A). $$
    Hence they are equal.




    Although these two definitions are the same, the reason we usually don't take pairwise disjoint sequences when defining the outer measure is because it tends to be simpler to work with. If we have a covering of our set $A$ we want to compute the outer measure of, we don't need to go through this construction to get a disjoint covering each time.



    Also in practice the technical construction of the outer measure is not too important, beyond the fact that it can be constructed. The important point is that it satisfies certain properties as outlined on the wikipedia page, and the provided definition is the minimal thing that works.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$

















      1












      $begingroup$

      I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but the the following may be insightful. Suppose I also define,



      $$barmu^*(A) = infBiglsum_n=1^infty mu(A_n): A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n, A_n in mathcal A; textare pairwise disjoint Bigr$$



      I claim that $mu^* = bar mu^*.$



      Since we are taking the infimum over a smaller collection of sets,we have $mu^*(A) leq barmu^*(A)$ for all $A subset X$ (here $X$ is your measure space).



      Conversely let $A_n in mathcal A$ be a sequence such that $A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n.$ Then we define $B_n in mathcal A$ as $B_1 = A_1$ and for $n geq 2,$
      $$ B_n+1 = A_n+1 setminus bigcup_i=1^n A_i.$$
      Observe by construction that $B_n$ are pairwise disjoint and we have,
      $$ bigcup_n=1^infty A_n = bigcup_n=1^infty B_n. $$
      Therefore we have,
      $$ barmu^*(A) leq sum_n=1^infty mu(B_n) leq sum_n=1^infty mu(A_n). $$
      Taking the infimum over all sequences $A_n in mathcal A$ we deduce that,
      $$ barmu^*(A) leq mu^*(A). $$
      Hence they are equal.




      Although these two definitions are the same, the reason we usually don't take pairwise disjoint sequences when defining the outer measure is because it tends to be simpler to work with. If we have a covering of our set $A$ we want to compute the outer measure of, we don't need to go through this construction to get a disjoint covering each time.



      Also in practice the technical construction of the outer measure is not too important, beyond the fact that it can be constructed. The important point is that it satisfies certain properties as outlined on the wikipedia page, and the provided definition is the minimal thing that works.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$















        1












        1








        1





        $begingroup$

        I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but the the following may be insightful. Suppose I also define,



        $$barmu^*(A) = infBiglsum_n=1^infty mu(A_n): A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n, A_n in mathcal A; textare pairwise disjoint Bigr$$



        I claim that $mu^* = bar mu^*.$



        Since we are taking the infimum over a smaller collection of sets,we have $mu^*(A) leq barmu^*(A)$ for all $A subset X$ (here $X$ is your measure space).



        Conversely let $A_n in mathcal A$ be a sequence such that $A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n.$ Then we define $B_n in mathcal A$ as $B_1 = A_1$ and for $n geq 2,$
        $$ B_n+1 = A_n+1 setminus bigcup_i=1^n A_i.$$
        Observe by construction that $B_n$ are pairwise disjoint and we have,
        $$ bigcup_n=1^infty A_n = bigcup_n=1^infty B_n. $$
        Therefore we have,
        $$ barmu^*(A) leq sum_n=1^infty mu(B_n) leq sum_n=1^infty mu(A_n). $$
        Taking the infimum over all sequences $A_n in mathcal A$ we deduce that,
        $$ barmu^*(A) leq mu^*(A). $$
        Hence they are equal.




        Although these two definitions are the same, the reason we usually don't take pairwise disjoint sequences when defining the outer measure is because it tends to be simpler to work with. If we have a covering of our set $A$ we want to compute the outer measure of, we don't need to go through this construction to get a disjoint covering each time.



        Also in practice the technical construction of the outer measure is not too important, beyond the fact that it can be constructed. The important point is that it satisfies certain properties as outlined on the wikipedia page, and the provided definition is the minimal thing that works.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but the the following may be insightful. Suppose I also define,



        $$barmu^*(A) = infBiglsum_n=1^infty mu(A_n): A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n, A_n in mathcal A; textare pairwise disjoint Bigr$$



        I claim that $mu^* = bar mu^*.$



        Since we are taking the infimum over a smaller collection of sets,we have $mu^*(A) leq barmu^*(A)$ for all $A subset X$ (here $X$ is your measure space).



        Conversely let $A_n in mathcal A$ be a sequence such that $A subset bigcup_n=1^infty A_n.$ Then we define $B_n in mathcal A$ as $B_1 = A_1$ and for $n geq 2,$
        $$ B_n+1 = A_n+1 setminus bigcup_i=1^n A_i.$$
        Observe by construction that $B_n$ are pairwise disjoint and we have,
        $$ bigcup_n=1^infty A_n = bigcup_n=1^infty B_n. $$
        Therefore we have,
        $$ barmu^*(A) leq sum_n=1^infty mu(B_n) leq sum_n=1^infty mu(A_n). $$
        Taking the infimum over all sequences $A_n in mathcal A$ we deduce that,
        $$ barmu^*(A) leq mu^*(A). $$
        Hence they are equal.




        Although these two definitions are the same, the reason we usually don't take pairwise disjoint sequences when defining the outer measure is because it tends to be simpler to work with. If we have a covering of our set $A$ we want to compute the outer measure of, we don't need to go through this construction to get a disjoint covering each time.



        Also in practice the technical construction of the outer measure is not too important, beyond the fact that it can be constructed. The important point is that it satisfies certain properties as outlined on the wikipedia page, and the provided definition is the minimal thing that works.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Apr 1 at 10:07









        ktoiktoi

        2,5611618




        2,5611618













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