How to understand fibres of morphisms of schemes. The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Separated Morphisms of SchemesCan we recover étale, fpqc etc. morphisms of schemes from the affine versions?How to understand a fibre over a generic point?Details about the definition of: “deformation of a family”Fibre of morphism of schemes.Fibres of a morphismUnderlying topological space of $X_y = X times_Y Spec hspace0.5mm k(y)$.Morphisms of global sections and Morphisms of SchemesA more elegant proof that affine morphisms of schemes are affine local on the targetBase change of cohomology for schemes and formal schemes.

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How to understand fibres of morphisms of schemes.



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Separated Morphisms of SchemesCan we recover étale, fpqc etc. morphisms of schemes from the affine versions?How to understand a fibre over a generic point?Details about the definition of: “deformation of a family”Fibre of morphism of schemes.Fibres of a morphismUnderlying topological space of $X_y = X times_Y Spec hspace0.5mm k(y)$.Morphisms of global sections and Morphisms of SchemesA more elegant proof that affine morphisms of schemes are affine local on the targetBase change of cohomology for schemes and formal schemes.










2












$begingroup$


Let $f:Xto Y$ be a morphism of schemes, and let $k(y)$ to be the residue field of the point $y$. The fibre of the morphism $f$ over the point $y$ is defined to be the scheme $X_y=Xtimes Spec(k(y))$.



It's said that $X_y$ is homeomorphic to $f^-1(y)$. If we consider affine schemes, then the point $y$ corresponds to a prime ideal $p$ in $mathcalO_y$, then $f^-1(y)$ should correspond to a prime ideal $q$ in $mathcalO_x$, which is a point. But sometimes $f^-1(y)$ can be more than one point, so I am not sure what $X_y$ looks like.



Besides, it seems that if $H$ is a subscheme of $Y$, then $f^-1(H)$ can be regarded as $Xtimes H$. I hope someone can show me a clear picture. Thanks!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$
















    2












    $begingroup$


    Let $f:Xto Y$ be a morphism of schemes, and let $k(y)$ to be the residue field of the point $y$. The fibre of the morphism $f$ over the point $y$ is defined to be the scheme $X_y=Xtimes Spec(k(y))$.



    It's said that $X_y$ is homeomorphic to $f^-1(y)$. If we consider affine schemes, then the point $y$ corresponds to a prime ideal $p$ in $mathcalO_y$, then $f^-1(y)$ should correspond to a prime ideal $q$ in $mathcalO_x$, which is a point. But sometimes $f^-1(y)$ can be more than one point, so I am not sure what $X_y$ looks like.



    Besides, it seems that if $H$ is a subscheme of $Y$, then $f^-1(H)$ can be regarded as $Xtimes H$. I hope someone can show me a clear picture. Thanks!










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      2












      2








      2





      $begingroup$


      Let $f:Xto Y$ be a morphism of schemes, and let $k(y)$ to be the residue field of the point $y$. The fibre of the morphism $f$ over the point $y$ is defined to be the scheme $X_y=Xtimes Spec(k(y))$.



      It's said that $X_y$ is homeomorphic to $f^-1(y)$. If we consider affine schemes, then the point $y$ corresponds to a prime ideal $p$ in $mathcalO_y$, then $f^-1(y)$ should correspond to a prime ideal $q$ in $mathcalO_x$, which is a point. But sometimes $f^-1(y)$ can be more than one point, so I am not sure what $X_y$ looks like.



      Besides, it seems that if $H$ is a subscheme of $Y$, then $f^-1(H)$ can be regarded as $Xtimes H$. I hope someone can show me a clear picture. Thanks!










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Let $f:Xto Y$ be a morphism of schemes, and let $k(y)$ to be the residue field of the point $y$. The fibre of the morphism $f$ over the point $y$ is defined to be the scheme $X_y=Xtimes Spec(k(y))$.



      It's said that $X_y$ is homeomorphic to $f^-1(y)$. If we consider affine schemes, then the point $y$ corresponds to a prime ideal $p$ in $mathcalO_y$, then $f^-1(y)$ should correspond to a prime ideal $q$ in $mathcalO_x$, which is a point. But sometimes $f^-1(y)$ can be more than one point, so I am not sure what $X_y$ looks like.



      Besides, it seems that if $H$ is a subscheme of $Y$, then $f^-1(H)$ can be regarded as $Xtimes H$. I hope someone can show me a clear picture. Thanks!







      algebraic-geometry fibre-product






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited Mar 31 at 16:38









      lush

      780116




      780116










      asked Mar 31 at 14:40









      Yuyi ZhangYuyi Zhang

      17117




      17117




















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          1












          $begingroup$

          Why should $f^-1(y)$ correspond to only one prime ideal $q$ in $X$?



          In the affine case you know that $f : X = mathrmSpec B to mathrmSpec A = Y$ corresponds to a morphism of rings $varphi : A to B$.
          Now for $y in Y$ one has $f^-1(y) = x in X mid varphi^-1(x) = y $ which is not necessarily just a single point.



          But this is what $f^-1(y)$ looks like in the affine case (I really mean: what the underlying topological space looks like).



          One can check that this set corresponds to $mathrmSpec (B otimes_A k(y))$ which has a scheme-structure as well - this is the underlying scheme-structure of $f^-1(y)$ - actually $f^-1(y) = X times_Y mathrmSpec k(y) = mathrmSpec (B otimes_A k(y))$.



          Regarding your second question:
          One defines $f^-1(H) := X times_Y H$ as the base change of the inclusion $i : H to Y$ along $f$.
          Note that the projection $f^-1(H) to X$ is an embedding, as it is the base change of an embedding.



          Maybe explicitly writing down the universal property might help you accepting this as a useful and natural definition:



          Giving a morphism $Z to f^-1(H)$ is the same as giving morphisms $p : Z to X$ and $q : Z to H$ such that $f circ p = i circ q$.



          That is: A morphism $p : Z to X$ factorizes over $f^-1(H)$ if and only if the composition $f circ p : Z to Y$ factorizes over the embedding $H to Y$.



          Also note that this actually does the job in for example the categories of sets:



          If $f : A to B$ is any map of sets and $B' subseteq B$, then $f^-1(B')$ certainly satisfies the universal property of $A times_B B'$.
          If you don't want to use the universal property: $A times_B B' = (a,b') in A times B' mid f(a) = b'$, so that $f^-1(B') = p_1(Atimes_B B')$ where $p_1$ denotes the projection to the first factor.
          Also the $b'$ in $(a,b')$ is no real benefit informationwise as by construction $b' = f(a)$, hence one can reconstruct b' just by knowing $a$.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$




















            1












            $begingroup$

            The question is of a local nature so let's assume $X=Spec(B)$ and $Y=Spec (A)$ are affine schemes. Then $f: Spec$ $ Brightarrow Spec$ $A$ corresponds to a ring homomorphism $ g: A rightarrow B$ . Let $y$ correspond to the prime ideal $p$ in $A$ . Then $X_y= X times_ Y Spec (k(y)) = Spec ( B otimes_A frac A_ppA_p) $. Suppose $g^-1(q)=p$ where $qin Spec(B)$ Then $A rightarrow B rightarrow B_q$ factors uniquely through $A_p rightarrow B_q$ and hence we have a unique ring homomorphism from $ B otimes _A A_p/pA_p rightarrow B_q/qB_q$ which is surjective and $B_q/qB_q$ is a field Thus $exists ! zin X_y $ which is the image of the point $Spec (B_q/qB_q)$ .



            Now back to geometry.
            Consider the commutative diagram



            $requireAMScd
            beginCD
            X_y@>>> Spec (k(y));\
            @VVV @VVV \
            X@>>> Y;
            endCD
            $

            The maps are all continuous and follow from properties of fibre product. $pi_1(X_y) subset f^-1 (y)$ following commutativity. And the algebra above shows it is a bijection. So you have got a continuous bijection.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$













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              2 Answers
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              2 Answers
              2






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              active

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              active

              oldest

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              1












              $begingroup$

              Why should $f^-1(y)$ correspond to only one prime ideal $q$ in $X$?



              In the affine case you know that $f : X = mathrmSpec B to mathrmSpec A = Y$ corresponds to a morphism of rings $varphi : A to B$.
              Now for $y in Y$ one has $f^-1(y) = x in X mid varphi^-1(x) = y $ which is not necessarily just a single point.



              But this is what $f^-1(y)$ looks like in the affine case (I really mean: what the underlying topological space looks like).



              One can check that this set corresponds to $mathrmSpec (B otimes_A k(y))$ which has a scheme-structure as well - this is the underlying scheme-structure of $f^-1(y)$ - actually $f^-1(y) = X times_Y mathrmSpec k(y) = mathrmSpec (B otimes_A k(y))$.



              Regarding your second question:
              One defines $f^-1(H) := X times_Y H$ as the base change of the inclusion $i : H to Y$ along $f$.
              Note that the projection $f^-1(H) to X$ is an embedding, as it is the base change of an embedding.



              Maybe explicitly writing down the universal property might help you accepting this as a useful and natural definition:



              Giving a morphism $Z to f^-1(H)$ is the same as giving morphisms $p : Z to X$ and $q : Z to H$ such that $f circ p = i circ q$.



              That is: A morphism $p : Z to X$ factorizes over $f^-1(H)$ if and only if the composition $f circ p : Z to Y$ factorizes over the embedding $H to Y$.



              Also note that this actually does the job in for example the categories of sets:



              If $f : A to B$ is any map of sets and $B' subseteq B$, then $f^-1(B')$ certainly satisfies the universal property of $A times_B B'$.
              If you don't want to use the universal property: $A times_B B' = (a,b') in A times B' mid f(a) = b'$, so that $f^-1(B') = p_1(Atimes_B B')$ where $p_1$ denotes the projection to the first factor.
              Also the $b'$ in $(a,b')$ is no real benefit informationwise as by construction $b' = f(a)$, hence one can reconstruct b' just by knowing $a$.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$

















                1












                $begingroup$

                Why should $f^-1(y)$ correspond to only one prime ideal $q$ in $X$?



                In the affine case you know that $f : X = mathrmSpec B to mathrmSpec A = Y$ corresponds to a morphism of rings $varphi : A to B$.
                Now for $y in Y$ one has $f^-1(y) = x in X mid varphi^-1(x) = y $ which is not necessarily just a single point.



                But this is what $f^-1(y)$ looks like in the affine case (I really mean: what the underlying topological space looks like).



                One can check that this set corresponds to $mathrmSpec (B otimes_A k(y))$ which has a scheme-structure as well - this is the underlying scheme-structure of $f^-1(y)$ - actually $f^-1(y) = X times_Y mathrmSpec k(y) = mathrmSpec (B otimes_A k(y))$.



                Regarding your second question:
                One defines $f^-1(H) := X times_Y H$ as the base change of the inclusion $i : H to Y$ along $f$.
                Note that the projection $f^-1(H) to X$ is an embedding, as it is the base change of an embedding.



                Maybe explicitly writing down the universal property might help you accepting this as a useful and natural definition:



                Giving a morphism $Z to f^-1(H)$ is the same as giving morphisms $p : Z to X$ and $q : Z to H$ such that $f circ p = i circ q$.



                That is: A morphism $p : Z to X$ factorizes over $f^-1(H)$ if and only if the composition $f circ p : Z to Y$ factorizes over the embedding $H to Y$.



                Also note that this actually does the job in for example the categories of sets:



                If $f : A to B$ is any map of sets and $B' subseteq B$, then $f^-1(B')$ certainly satisfies the universal property of $A times_B B'$.
                If you don't want to use the universal property: $A times_B B' = (a,b') in A times B' mid f(a) = b'$, so that $f^-1(B') = p_1(Atimes_B B')$ where $p_1$ denotes the projection to the first factor.
                Also the $b'$ in $(a,b')$ is no real benefit informationwise as by construction $b' = f(a)$, hence one can reconstruct b' just by knowing $a$.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$















                  1












                  1








                  1





                  $begingroup$

                  Why should $f^-1(y)$ correspond to only one prime ideal $q$ in $X$?



                  In the affine case you know that $f : X = mathrmSpec B to mathrmSpec A = Y$ corresponds to a morphism of rings $varphi : A to B$.
                  Now for $y in Y$ one has $f^-1(y) = x in X mid varphi^-1(x) = y $ which is not necessarily just a single point.



                  But this is what $f^-1(y)$ looks like in the affine case (I really mean: what the underlying topological space looks like).



                  One can check that this set corresponds to $mathrmSpec (B otimes_A k(y))$ which has a scheme-structure as well - this is the underlying scheme-structure of $f^-1(y)$ - actually $f^-1(y) = X times_Y mathrmSpec k(y) = mathrmSpec (B otimes_A k(y))$.



                  Regarding your second question:
                  One defines $f^-1(H) := X times_Y H$ as the base change of the inclusion $i : H to Y$ along $f$.
                  Note that the projection $f^-1(H) to X$ is an embedding, as it is the base change of an embedding.



                  Maybe explicitly writing down the universal property might help you accepting this as a useful and natural definition:



                  Giving a morphism $Z to f^-1(H)$ is the same as giving morphisms $p : Z to X$ and $q : Z to H$ such that $f circ p = i circ q$.



                  That is: A morphism $p : Z to X$ factorizes over $f^-1(H)$ if and only if the composition $f circ p : Z to Y$ factorizes over the embedding $H to Y$.



                  Also note that this actually does the job in for example the categories of sets:



                  If $f : A to B$ is any map of sets and $B' subseteq B$, then $f^-1(B')$ certainly satisfies the universal property of $A times_B B'$.
                  If you don't want to use the universal property: $A times_B B' = (a,b') in A times B' mid f(a) = b'$, so that $f^-1(B') = p_1(Atimes_B B')$ where $p_1$ denotes the projection to the first factor.
                  Also the $b'$ in $(a,b')$ is no real benefit informationwise as by construction $b' = f(a)$, hence one can reconstruct b' just by knowing $a$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  Why should $f^-1(y)$ correspond to only one prime ideal $q$ in $X$?



                  In the affine case you know that $f : X = mathrmSpec B to mathrmSpec A = Y$ corresponds to a morphism of rings $varphi : A to B$.
                  Now for $y in Y$ one has $f^-1(y) = x in X mid varphi^-1(x) = y $ which is not necessarily just a single point.



                  But this is what $f^-1(y)$ looks like in the affine case (I really mean: what the underlying topological space looks like).



                  One can check that this set corresponds to $mathrmSpec (B otimes_A k(y))$ which has a scheme-structure as well - this is the underlying scheme-structure of $f^-1(y)$ - actually $f^-1(y) = X times_Y mathrmSpec k(y) = mathrmSpec (B otimes_A k(y))$.



                  Regarding your second question:
                  One defines $f^-1(H) := X times_Y H$ as the base change of the inclusion $i : H to Y$ along $f$.
                  Note that the projection $f^-1(H) to X$ is an embedding, as it is the base change of an embedding.



                  Maybe explicitly writing down the universal property might help you accepting this as a useful and natural definition:



                  Giving a morphism $Z to f^-1(H)$ is the same as giving morphisms $p : Z to X$ and $q : Z to H$ such that $f circ p = i circ q$.



                  That is: A morphism $p : Z to X$ factorizes over $f^-1(H)$ if and only if the composition $f circ p : Z to Y$ factorizes over the embedding $H to Y$.



                  Also note that this actually does the job in for example the categories of sets:



                  If $f : A to B$ is any map of sets and $B' subseteq B$, then $f^-1(B')$ certainly satisfies the universal property of $A times_B B'$.
                  If you don't want to use the universal property: $A times_B B' = (a,b') in A times B' mid f(a) = b'$, so that $f^-1(B') = p_1(Atimes_B B')$ where $p_1$ denotes the projection to the first factor.
                  Also the $b'$ in $(a,b')$ is no real benefit informationwise as by construction $b' = f(a)$, hence one can reconstruct b' just by knowing $a$.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Mar 31 at 15:27

























                  answered Mar 31 at 15:20









                  lushlush

                  780116




                  780116





















                      1












                      $begingroup$

                      The question is of a local nature so let's assume $X=Spec(B)$ and $Y=Spec (A)$ are affine schemes. Then $f: Spec$ $ Brightarrow Spec$ $A$ corresponds to a ring homomorphism $ g: A rightarrow B$ . Let $y$ correspond to the prime ideal $p$ in $A$ . Then $X_y= X times_ Y Spec (k(y)) = Spec ( B otimes_A frac A_ppA_p) $. Suppose $g^-1(q)=p$ where $qin Spec(B)$ Then $A rightarrow B rightarrow B_q$ factors uniquely through $A_p rightarrow B_q$ and hence we have a unique ring homomorphism from $ B otimes _A A_p/pA_p rightarrow B_q/qB_q$ which is surjective and $B_q/qB_q$ is a field Thus $exists ! zin X_y $ which is the image of the point $Spec (B_q/qB_q)$ .



                      Now back to geometry.
                      Consider the commutative diagram



                      $requireAMScd
                      beginCD
                      X_y@>>> Spec (k(y));\
                      @VVV @VVV \
                      X@>>> Y;
                      endCD
                      $

                      The maps are all continuous and follow from properties of fibre product. $pi_1(X_y) subset f^-1 (y)$ following commutativity. And the algebra above shows it is a bijection. So you have got a continuous bijection.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$

















                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        The question is of a local nature so let's assume $X=Spec(B)$ and $Y=Spec (A)$ are affine schemes. Then $f: Spec$ $ Brightarrow Spec$ $A$ corresponds to a ring homomorphism $ g: A rightarrow B$ . Let $y$ correspond to the prime ideal $p$ in $A$ . Then $X_y= X times_ Y Spec (k(y)) = Spec ( B otimes_A frac A_ppA_p) $. Suppose $g^-1(q)=p$ where $qin Spec(B)$ Then $A rightarrow B rightarrow B_q$ factors uniquely through $A_p rightarrow B_q$ and hence we have a unique ring homomorphism from $ B otimes _A A_p/pA_p rightarrow B_q/qB_q$ which is surjective and $B_q/qB_q$ is a field Thus $exists ! zin X_y $ which is the image of the point $Spec (B_q/qB_q)$ .



                        Now back to geometry.
                        Consider the commutative diagram



                        $requireAMScd
                        beginCD
                        X_y@>>> Spec (k(y));\
                        @VVV @VVV \
                        X@>>> Y;
                        endCD
                        $

                        The maps are all continuous and follow from properties of fibre product. $pi_1(X_y) subset f^-1 (y)$ following commutativity. And the algebra above shows it is a bijection. So you have got a continuous bijection.






                        share|cite|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$















                          1












                          1








                          1





                          $begingroup$

                          The question is of a local nature so let's assume $X=Spec(B)$ and $Y=Spec (A)$ are affine schemes. Then $f: Spec$ $ Brightarrow Spec$ $A$ corresponds to a ring homomorphism $ g: A rightarrow B$ . Let $y$ correspond to the prime ideal $p$ in $A$ . Then $X_y= X times_ Y Spec (k(y)) = Spec ( B otimes_A frac A_ppA_p) $. Suppose $g^-1(q)=p$ where $qin Spec(B)$ Then $A rightarrow B rightarrow B_q$ factors uniquely through $A_p rightarrow B_q$ and hence we have a unique ring homomorphism from $ B otimes _A A_p/pA_p rightarrow B_q/qB_q$ which is surjective and $B_q/qB_q$ is a field Thus $exists ! zin X_y $ which is the image of the point $Spec (B_q/qB_q)$ .



                          Now back to geometry.
                          Consider the commutative diagram



                          $requireAMScd
                          beginCD
                          X_y@>>> Spec (k(y));\
                          @VVV @VVV \
                          X@>>> Y;
                          endCD
                          $

                          The maps are all continuous and follow from properties of fibre product. $pi_1(X_y) subset f^-1 (y)$ following commutativity. And the algebra above shows it is a bijection. So you have got a continuous bijection.






                          share|cite|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$



                          The question is of a local nature so let's assume $X=Spec(B)$ and $Y=Spec (A)$ are affine schemes. Then $f: Spec$ $ Brightarrow Spec$ $A$ corresponds to a ring homomorphism $ g: A rightarrow B$ . Let $y$ correspond to the prime ideal $p$ in $A$ . Then $X_y= X times_ Y Spec (k(y)) = Spec ( B otimes_A frac A_ppA_p) $. Suppose $g^-1(q)=p$ where $qin Spec(B)$ Then $A rightarrow B rightarrow B_q$ factors uniquely through $A_p rightarrow B_q$ and hence we have a unique ring homomorphism from $ B otimes _A A_p/pA_p rightarrow B_q/qB_q$ which is surjective and $B_q/qB_q$ is a field Thus $exists ! zin X_y $ which is the image of the point $Spec (B_q/qB_q)$ .



                          Now back to geometry.
                          Consider the commutative diagram



                          $requireAMScd
                          beginCD
                          X_y@>>> Spec (k(y));\
                          @VVV @VVV \
                          X@>>> Y;
                          endCD
                          $

                          The maps are all continuous and follow from properties of fibre product. $pi_1(X_y) subset f^-1 (y)$ following commutativity. And the algebra above shows it is a bijection. So you have got a continuous bijection.







                          share|cite|improve this answer














                          share|cite|improve this answer



                          share|cite|improve this answer








                          edited Mar 31 at 16:18

























                          answered Mar 31 at 16:08









                          Soumik GhoshSoumik Ghosh

                          1,453112




                          1,453112



























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