Suppose we have a non-zero non unit $r$ in $R$ that cannot be written as a product of irreducibles … The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InExhibit an integral domain $R$ and a non-zero non-unit element of $R$ that is not a product of irreducibles.Can non-units be multiplied together to form units?Prove that a non-zero, non-unit element $a in R$ is irreducibleA question about units in integral domains.ACC on principal ideals implies factorization into irreducibles. Does $R$ have to be a domain?Why we throw away the units in the definition of irreducible elements?Why Can't we Factor Invertible Elements?Why is every non-zero element not a unit of this ring?What is the condition for “NOT” irreducibility of a non-zero, non-unit element $a$ in an integral domain $R$?UFD: existence of an infinite factorization
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Suppose we have a non-zero non unit $r$ in $R$ that cannot be written as a product of irreducibles …
The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InExhibit an integral domain $R$ and a non-zero non-unit element of $R$ that is not a product of irreducibles.Can non-units be multiplied together to form units?Prove that a non-zero, non-unit element $a in R$ is irreducibleA question about units in integral domains.ACC on principal ideals implies factorization into irreducibles. Does $R$ have to be a domain?Why we throw away the units in the definition of irreducible elements?Why Can't we Factor Invertible Elements?Why is every non-zero element not a unit of this ring?What is the condition for “NOT” irreducibility of a non-zero, non-unit element $a$ in an integral domain $R$?UFD: existence of an infinite factorization
$begingroup$
Problem: Let $R$ be an integral domain. Suppose we have a non-zero non-unit $r$ in $R$ that cannot be written as a product of irreducibles, then my textbook states without proof that $r$ is "certainly not irreducible".
I'm not sure why this is true. If $r=ab$ then consider two cases:
1) $a,b$ are both reducible, in this case I have to show that $r=ab$ implies that both $a,b$ are non-units (I think). Not sure how to proceed
2) The case where $a$ is reducible, and $b$ is not (or vice versa).
I am very confused right now and I think that I am missing something basic. Insights appreciated.
My definition of irreducible is : An element $p in R$ is irreducible if $p neq 0$, $p$ is not a unit, and if $p=ab$ then either $a$ or $b$ is a unit. If an element does not satisfy this definition it is reducible.
This comes from the chapter "5.1: Irreducibles and Unique Factorization" from Nicholson's introduction to Abstract Algebra 4th edition page 255.
ring-theory
$endgroup$
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Problem: Let $R$ be an integral domain. Suppose we have a non-zero non-unit $r$ in $R$ that cannot be written as a product of irreducibles, then my textbook states without proof that $r$ is "certainly not irreducible".
I'm not sure why this is true. If $r=ab$ then consider two cases:
1) $a,b$ are both reducible, in this case I have to show that $r=ab$ implies that both $a,b$ are non-units (I think). Not sure how to proceed
2) The case where $a$ is reducible, and $b$ is not (or vice versa).
I am very confused right now and I think that I am missing something basic. Insights appreciated.
My definition of irreducible is : An element $p in R$ is irreducible if $p neq 0$, $p$ is not a unit, and if $p=ab$ then either $a$ or $b$ is a unit. If an element does not satisfy this definition it is reducible.
This comes from the chapter "5.1: Irreducibles and Unique Factorization" from Nicholson's introduction to Abstract Algebra 4th edition page 255.
ring-theory
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I guess you mean $r$ is irreducible? Otherwise consider $2$ in $mathbbZ$. Maybe you can tell us, what your definition of reducibility is? I am sure that this would help you to answer your own question.
$endgroup$
– Severin Schraven
Mar 30 at 22:28
$begingroup$
The statement as written is obviously false. Are you sure you have copied it correctly?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:36
$begingroup$
@EricWofsey I think I have copied it correctly, but I will post a screenshot to make sure.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:37
$begingroup$
The last edit you made (removing the word "two") makes a huge difference in the meaning!
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:38
3
$begingroup$
@IntegrateThis Yes, that is standard, and an empty product $= 1 $
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:41
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Problem: Let $R$ be an integral domain. Suppose we have a non-zero non-unit $r$ in $R$ that cannot be written as a product of irreducibles, then my textbook states without proof that $r$ is "certainly not irreducible".
I'm not sure why this is true. If $r=ab$ then consider two cases:
1) $a,b$ are both reducible, in this case I have to show that $r=ab$ implies that both $a,b$ are non-units (I think). Not sure how to proceed
2) The case where $a$ is reducible, and $b$ is not (or vice versa).
I am very confused right now and I think that I am missing something basic. Insights appreciated.
My definition of irreducible is : An element $p in R$ is irreducible if $p neq 0$, $p$ is not a unit, and if $p=ab$ then either $a$ or $b$ is a unit. If an element does not satisfy this definition it is reducible.
This comes from the chapter "5.1: Irreducibles and Unique Factorization" from Nicholson's introduction to Abstract Algebra 4th edition page 255.
ring-theory
$endgroup$
Problem: Let $R$ be an integral domain. Suppose we have a non-zero non-unit $r$ in $R$ that cannot be written as a product of irreducibles, then my textbook states without proof that $r$ is "certainly not irreducible".
I'm not sure why this is true. If $r=ab$ then consider two cases:
1) $a,b$ are both reducible, in this case I have to show that $r=ab$ implies that both $a,b$ are non-units (I think). Not sure how to proceed
2) The case where $a$ is reducible, and $b$ is not (or vice versa).
I am very confused right now and I think that I am missing something basic. Insights appreciated.
My definition of irreducible is : An element $p in R$ is irreducible if $p neq 0$, $p$ is not a unit, and if $p=ab$ then either $a$ or $b$ is a unit. If an element does not satisfy this definition it is reducible.
This comes from the chapter "5.1: Irreducibles and Unique Factorization" from Nicholson's introduction to Abstract Algebra 4th edition page 255.
ring-theory
ring-theory
edited Mar 30 at 22:39
IntegrateThis
asked Mar 30 at 22:16
IntegrateThisIntegrateThis
1,9661818
1,9661818
$begingroup$
I guess you mean $r$ is irreducible? Otherwise consider $2$ in $mathbbZ$. Maybe you can tell us, what your definition of reducibility is? I am sure that this would help you to answer your own question.
$endgroup$
– Severin Schraven
Mar 30 at 22:28
$begingroup$
The statement as written is obviously false. Are you sure you have copied it correctly?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:36
$begingroup$
@EricWofsey I think I have copied it correctly, but I will post a screenshot to make sure.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:37
$begingroup$
The last edit you made (removing the word "two") makes a huge difference in the meaning!
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:38
3
$begingroup$
@IntegrateThis Yes, that is standard, and an empty product $= 1 $
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:41
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
I guess you mean $r$ is irreducible? Otherwise consider $2$ in $mathbbZ$. Maybe you can tell us, what your definition of reducibility is? I am sure that this would help you to answer your own question.
$endgroup$
– Severin Schraven
Mar 30 at 22:28
$begingroup$
The statement as written is obviously false. Are you sure you have copied it correctly?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:36
$begingroup$
@EricWofsey I think I have copied it correctly, but I will post a screenshot to make sure.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:37
$begingroup$
The last edit you made (removing the word "two") makes a huge difference in the meaning!
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:38
3
$begingroup$
@IntegrateThis Yes, that is standard, and an empty product $= 1 $
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:41
$begingroup$
I guess you mean $r$ is irreducible? Otherwise consider $2$ in $mathbbZ$. Maybe you can tell us, what your definition of reducibility is? I am sure that this would help you to answer your own question.
$endgroup$
– Severin Schraven
Mar 30 at 22:28
$begingroup$
I guess you mean $r$ is irreducible? Otherwise consider $2$ in $mathbbZ$. Maybe you can tell us, what your definition of reducibility is? I am sure that this would help you to answer your own question.
$endgroup$
– Severin Schraven
Mar 30 at 22:28
$begingroup$
The statement as written is obviously false. Are you sure you have copied it correctly?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:36
$begingroup$
The statement as written is obviously false. Are you sure you have copied it correctly?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:36
$begingroup$
@EricWofsey I think I have copied it correctly, but I will post a screenshot to make sure.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:37
$begingroup$
@EricWofsey I think I have copied it correctly, but I will post a screenshot to make sure.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:37
$begingroup$
The last edit you made (removing the word "two") makes a huge difference in the meaning!
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:38
$begingroup$
The last edit you made (removing the word "two") makes a huge difference in the meaning!
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:38
3
3
$begingroup$
@IntegrateThis Yes, that is standard, and an empty product $= 1 $
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:41
$begingroup$
@IntegrateThis Yes, that is standard, and an empty product $= 1 $
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:41
|
show 1 more comment
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Note that "product of irreducibles" means "product of any number of irreducibles", not necessarily a binary product. So an irreducible element $r$ can always be written as a product of irreducibles, namely a unary product consisting just of $r$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:42
2
$begingroup$
It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I suspect the issue is that the author is using a different definition of product than you are.
A fairly standard definition is something like the following:
Let $n$ be a natural number, regarded as an ordinal, so $n=0,ldots,n-1$. Let $s:nto A$ be a map to a ring (or more generally a monoid).
Then we define $prod_iin n s_i$, usually written as $prod_i=0^n-1 s_n$ recursively by $$prod_iin 0 s_i =1,$$ and $$prod_iin k+1 s_i = left(prod_iin k s_iright)cdot s_k.$$
Note that this definition gives meaning to the notion of the empty and unary products.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Note that "product of irreducibles" means "product of any number of irreducibles", not necessarily a binary product. So an irreducible element $r$ can always be written as a product of irreducibles, namely a unary product consisting just of $r$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:42
2
$begingroup$
It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Note that "product of irreducibles" means "product of any number of irreducibles", not necessarily a binary product. So an irreducible element $r$ can always be written as a product of irreducibles, namely a unary product consisting just of $r$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:42
2
$begingroup$
It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Note that "product of irreducibles" means "product of any number of irreducibles", not necessarily a binary product. So an irreducible element $r$ can always be written as a product of irreducibles, namely a unary product consisting just of $r$.
$endgroup$
Note that "product of irreducibles" means "product of any number of irreducibles", not necessarily a binary product. So an irreducible element $r$ can always be written as a product of irreducibles, namely a unary product consisting just of $r$.
answered Mar 30 at 22:41
Eric WofseyEric Wofsey
193k14220352
193k14220352
$begingroup$
Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:42
2
$begingroup$
It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:42
2
$begingroup$
It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:44
$begingroup$
Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:42
$begingroup$
Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:42
2
2
$begingroup$
It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:44
$begingroup$
It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I suspect the issue is that the author is using a different definition of product than you are.
A fairly standard definition is something like the following:
Let $n$ be a natural number, regarded as an ordinal, so $n=0,ldots,n-1$. Let $s:nto A$ be a map to a ring (or more generally a monoid).
Then we define $prod_iin n s_i$, usually written as $prod_i=0^n-1 s_n$ recursively by $$prod_iin 0 s_i =1,$$ and $$prod_iin k+1 s_i = left(prod_iin k s_iright)cdot s_k.$$
Note that this definition gives meaning to the notion of the empty and unary products.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I suspect the issue is that the author is using a different definition of product than you are.
A fairly standard definition is something like the following:
Let $n$ be a natural number, regarded as an ordinal, so $n=0,ldots,n-1$. Let $s:nto A$ be a map to a ring (or more generally a monoid).
Then we define $prod_iin n s_i$, usually written as $prod_i=0^n-1 s_n$ recursively by $$prod_iin 0 s_i =1,$$ and $$prod_iin k+1 s_i = left(prod_iin k s_iright)cdot s_k.$$
Note that this definition gives meaning to the notion of the empty and unary products.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I suspect the issue is that the author is using a different definition of product than you are.
A fairly standard definition is something like the following:
Let $n$ be a natural number, regarded as an ordinal, so $n=0,ldots,n-1$. Let $s:nto A$ be a map to a ring (or more generally a monoid).
Then we define $prod_iin n s_i$, usually written as $prod_i=0^n-1 s_n$ recursively by $$prod_iin 0 s_i =1,$$ and $$prod_iin k+1 s_i = left(prod_iin k s_iright)cdot s_k.$$
Note that this definition gives meaning to the notion of the empty and unary products.
$endgroup$
I suspect the issue is that the author is using a different definition of product than you are.
A fairly standard definition is something like the following:
Let $n$ be a natural number, regarded as an ordinal, so $n=0,ldots,n-1$. Let $s:nto A$ be a map to a ring (or more generally a monoid).
Then we define $prod_iin n s_i$, usually written as $prod_i=0^n-1 s_n$ recursively by $$prod_iin 0 s_i =1,$$ and $$prod_iin k+1 s_i = left(prod_iin k s_iright)cdot s_k.$$
Note that this definition gives meaning to the notion of the empty and unary products.
answered Mar 30 at 22:46
jgonjgon
16.5k32143
16.5k32143
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
I guess you mean $r$ is irreducible? Otherwise consider $2$ in $mathbbZ$. Maybe you can tell us, what your definition of reducibility is? I am sure that this would help you to answer your own question.
$endgroup$
– Severin Schraven
Mar 30 at 22:28
$begingroup$
The statement as written is obviously false. Are you sure you have copied it correctly?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:36
$begingroup$
@EricWofsey I think I have copied it correctly, but I will post a screenshot to make sure.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:37
$begingroup$
The last edit you made (removing the word "two") makes a huge difference in the meaning!
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:38
3
$begingroup$
@IntegrateThis Yes, that is standard, and an empty product $= 1 $
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:41