Suppose we have a non-zero non unit $r$ in $R$ that cannot be written as a product of irreducibles … The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InExhibit an integral domain $R$ and a non-zero non-unit element of $R$ that is not a product of irreducibles.Can non-units be multiplied together to form units?Prove that a non-zero, non-unit element $a in R$ is irreducibleA question about units in integral domains.ACC on principal ideals implies factorization into irreducibles. Does $R$ have to be a domain?Why we throw away the units in the definition of irreducible elements?Why Can't we Factor Invertible Elements?Why is every non-zero element not a unit of this ring?What is the condition for “NOT” irreducibility of a non-zero, non-unit element $a$ in an integral domain $R$?UFD: existence of an infinite factorization

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Suppose we have a non-zero non unit $r$ in $R$ that cannot be written as a product of irreducibles …



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InExhibit an integral domain $R$ and a non-zero non-unit element of $R$ that is not a product of irreducibles.Can non-units be multiplied together to form units?Prove that a non-zero, non-unit element $a in R$ is irreducibleA question about units in integral domains.ACC on principal ideals implies factorization into irreducibles. Does $R$ have to be a domain?Why we throw away the units in the definition of irreducible elements?Why Can't we Factor Invertible Elements?Why is every non-zero element not a unit of this ring?What is the condition for “NOT” irreducibility of a non-zero, non-unit element $a$ in an integral domain $R$?UFD: existence of an infinite factorization










1












$begingroup$


Problem: Let $R$ be an integral domain. Suppose we have a non-zero non-unit $r$ in $R$ that cannot be written as a product of irreducibles, then my textbook states without proof that $r$ is "certainly not irreducible".



I'm not sure why this is true. If $r=ab$ then consider two cases:



1) $a,b$ are both reducible, in this case I have to show that $r=ab$ implies that both $a,b$ are non-units (I think). Not sure how to proceed



2) The case where $a$ is reducible, and $b$ is not (or vice versa).



I am very confused right now and I think that I am missing something basic. Insights appreciated.



My definition of irreducible is : An element $p in R$ is irreducible if $p neq 0$, $p$ is not a unit, and if $p=ab$ then either $a$ or $b$ is a unit. If an element does not satisfy this definition it is reducible.



This comes from the chapter "5.1: Irreducibles and Unique Factorization" from Nicholson's introduction to Abstract Algebra 4th edition page 255.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    I guess you mean $r$ is irreducible? Otherwise consider $2$ in $mathbbZ$. Maybe you can tell us, what your definition of reducibility is? I am sure that this would help you to answer your own question.
    $endgroup$
    – Severin Schraven
    Mar 30 at 22:28











  • $begingroup$
    The statement as written is obviously false. Are you sure you have copied it correctly?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 30 at 22:36










  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey I think I have copied it correctly, but I will post a screenshot to make sure.
    $endgroup$
    – IntegrateThis
    Mar 30 at 22:37










  • $begingroup$
    The last edit you made (removing the word "two") makes a huge difference in the meaning!
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 30 at 22:38






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @IntegrateThis Yes, that is standard, and an empty product $= 1 $
    $endgroup$
    – Bill Dubuque
    Mar 30 at 22:41
















1












$begingroup$


Problem: Let $R$ be an integral domain. Suppose we have a non-zero non-unit $r$ in $R$ that cannot be written as a product of irreducibles, then my textbook states without proof that $r$ is "certainly not irreducible".



I'm not sure why this is true. If $r=ab$ then consider two cases:



1) $a,b$ are both reducible, in this case I have to show that $r=ab$ implies that both $a,b$ are non-units (I think). Not sure how to proceed



2) The case where $a$ is reducible, and $b$ is not (or vice versa).



I am very confused right now and I think that I am missing something basic. Insights appreciated.



My definition of irreducible is : An element $p in R$ is irreducible if $p neq 0$, $p$ is not a unit, and if $p=ab$ then either $a$ or $b$ is a unit. If an element does not satisfy this definition it is reducible.



This comes from the chapter "5.1: Irreducibles and Unique Factorization" from Nicholson's introduction to Abstract Algebra 4th edition page 255.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    I guess you mean $r$ is irreducible? Otherwise consider $2$ in $mathbbZ$. Maybe you can tell us, what your definition of reducibility is? I am sure that this would help you to answer your own question.
    $endgroup$
    – Severin Schraven
    Mar 30 at 22:28











  • $begingroup$
    The statement as written is obviously false. Are you sure you have copied it correctly?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 30 at 22:36










  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey I think I have copied it correctly, but I will post a screenshot to make sure.
    $endgroup$
    – IntegrateThis
    Mar 30 at 22:37










  • $begingroup$
    The last edit you made (removing the word "two") makes a huge difference in the meaning!
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 30 at 22:38






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @IntegrateThis Yes, that is standard, and an empty product $= 1 $
    $endgroup$
    – Bill Dubuque
    Mar 30 at 22:41














1












1








1





$begingroup$


Problem: Let $R$ be an integral domain. Suppose we have a non-zero non-unit $r$ in $R$ that cannot be written as a product of irreducibles, then my textbook states without proof that $r$ is "certainly not irreducible".



I'm not sure why this is true. If $r=ab$ then consider two cases:



1) $a,b$ are both reducible, in this case I have to show that $r=ab$ implies that both $a,b$ are non-units (I think). Not sure how to proceed



2) The case where $a$ is reducible, and $b$ is not (or vice versa).



I am very confused right now and I think that I am missing something basic. Insights appreciated.



My definition of irreducible is : An element $p in R$ is irreducible if $p neq 0$, $p$ is not a unit, and if $p=ab$ then either $a$ or $b$ is a unit. If an element does not satisfy this definition it is reducible.



This comes from the chapter "5.1: Irreducibles and Unique Factorization" from Nicholson's introduction to Abstract Algebra 4th edition page 255.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Problem: Let $R$ be an integral domain. Suppose we have a non-zero non-unit $r$ in $R$ that cannot be written as a product of irreducibles, then my textbook states without proof that $r$ is "certainly not irreducible".



I'm not sure why this is true. If $r=ab$ then consider two cases:



1) $a,b$ are both reducible, in this case I have to show that $r=ab$ implies that both $a,b$ are non-units (I think). Not sure how to proceed



2) The case where $a$ is reducible, and $b$ is not (or vice versa).



I am very confused right now and I think that I am missing something basic. Insights appreciated.



My definition of irreducible is : An element $p in R$ is irreducible if $p neq 0$, $p$ is not a unit, and if $p=ab$ then either $a$ or $b$ is a unit. If an element does not satisfy this definition it is reducible.



This comes from the chapter "5.1: Irreducibles and Unique Factorization" from Nicholson's introduction to Abstract Algebra 4th edition page 255.







ring-theory






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Mar 30 at 22:39







IntegrateThis

















asked Mar 30 at 22:16









IntegrateThisIntegrateThis

1,9661818




1,9661818











  • $begingroup$
    I guess you mean $r$ is irreducible? Otherwise consider $2$ in $mathbbZ$. Maybe you can tell us, what your definition of reducibility is? I am sure that this would help you to answer your own question.
    $endgroup$
    – Severin Schraven
    Mar 30 at 22:28











  • $begingroup$
    The statement as written is obviously false. Are you sure you have copied it correctly?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 30 at 22:36










  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey I think I have copied it correctly, but I will post a screenshot to make sure.
    $endgroup$
    – IntegrateThis
    Mar 30 at 22:37










  • $begingroup$
    The last edit you made (removing the word "two") makes a huge difference in the meaning!
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 30 at 22:38






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @IntegrateThis Yes, that is standard, and an empty product $= 1 $
    $endgroup$
    – Bill Dubuque
    Mar 30 at 22:41

















  • $begingroup$
    I guess you mean $r$ is irreducible? Otherwise consider $2$ in $mathbbZ$. Maybe you can tell us, what your definition of reducibility is? I am sure that this would help you to answer your own question.
    $endgroup$
    – Severin Schraven
    Mar 30 at 22:28











  • $begingroup$
    The statement as written is obviously false. Are you sure you have copied it correctly?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 30 at 22:36










  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey I think I have copied it correctly, but I will post a screenshot to make sure.
    $endgroup$
    – IntegrateThis
    Mar 30 at 22:37










  • $begingroup$
    The last edit you made (removing the word "two") makes a huge difference in the meaning!
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 30 at 22:38






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @IntegrateThis Yes, that is standard, and an empty product $= 1 $
    $endgroup$
    – Bill Dubuque
    Mar 30 at 22:41
















$begingroup$
I guess you mean $r$ is irreducible? Otherwise consider $2$ in $mathbbZ$. Maybe you can tell us, what your definition of reducibility is? I am sure that this would help you to answer your own question.
$endgroup$
– Severin Schraven
Mar 30 at 22:28





$begingroup$
I guess you mean $r$ is irreducible? Otherwise consider $2$ in $mathbbZ$. Maybe you can tell us, what your definition of reducibility is? I am sure that this would help you to answer your own question.
$endgroup$
– Severin Schraven
Mar 30 at 22:28













$begingroup$
The statement as written is obviously false. Are you sure you have copied it correctly?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:36




$begingroup$
The statement as written is obviously false. Are you sure you have copied it correctly?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:36












$begingroup$
@EricWofsey I think I have copied it correctly, but I will post a screenshot to make sure.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:37




$begingroup$
@EricWofsey I think I have copied it correctly, but I will post a screenshot to make sure.
$endgroup$
– IntegrateThis
Mar 30 at 22:37












$begingroup$
The last edit you made (removing the word "two") makes a huge difference in the meaning!
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:38




$begingroup$
The last edit you made (removing the word "two") makes a huge difference in the meaning!
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 30 at 22:38




3




3




$begingroup$
@IntegrateThis Yes, that is standard, and an empty product $= 1 $
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:41





$begingroup$
@IntegrateThis Yes, that is standard, and an empty product $= 1 $
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Mar 30 at 22:41











2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

Note that "product of irreducibles" means "product of any number of irreducibles", not necessarily a binary product. So an irreducible element $r$ can always be written as a product of irreducibles, namely a unary product consisting just of $r$.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
    $endgroup$
    – IntegrateThis
    Mar 30 at 22:42






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
    $endgroup$
    – Bill Dubuque
    Mar 30 at 22:44



















2












$begingroup$

I suspect the issue is that the author is using a different definition of product than you are.



A fairly standard definition is something like the following:



Let $n$ be a natural number, regarded as an ordinal, so $n=0,ldots,n-1$. Let $s:nto A$ be a map to a ring (or more generally a monoid).



Then we define $prod_iin n s_i$, usually written as $prod_i=0^n-1 s_n$ recursively by $$prod_iin 0 s_i =1,$$ and $$prod_iin k+1 s_i = left(prod_iin k s_iright)cdot s_k.$$



Note that this definition gives meaning to the notion of the empty and unary products.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













    Your Answer





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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    3












    $begingroup$

    Note that "product of irreducibles" means "product of any number of irreducibles", not necessarily a binary product. So an irreducible element $r$ can always be written as a product of irreducibles, namely a unary product consisting just of $r$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
      $endgroup$
      – IntegrateThis
      Mar 30 at 22:42






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
      $endgroup$
      – Bill Dubuque
      Mar 30 at 22:44
















    3












    $begingroup$

    Note that "product of irreducibles" means "product of any number of irreducibles", not necessarily a binary product. So an irreducible element $r$ can always be written as a product of irreducibles, namely a unary product consisting just of $r$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
      $endgroup$
      – IntegrateThis
      Mar 30 at 22:42






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
      $endgroup$
      – Bill Dubuque
      Mar 30 at 22:44














    3












    3








    3





    $begingroup$

    Note that "product of irreducibles" means "product of any number of irreducibles", not necessarily a binary product. So an irreducible element $r$ can always be written as a product of irreducibles, namely a unary product consisting just of $r$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    Note that "product of irreducibles" means "product of any number of irreducibles", not necessarily a binary product. So an irreducible element $r$ can always be written as a product of irreducibles, namely a unary product consisting just of $r$.







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered Mar 30 at 22:41









    Eric WofseyEric Wofsey

    193k14220352




    193k14220352











    • $begingroup$
      Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
      $endgroup$
      – IntegrateThis
      Mar 30 at 22:42






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
      $endgroup$
      – Bill Dubuque
      Mar 30 at 22:44

















    • $begingroup$
      Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
      $endgroup$
      – IntegrateThis
      Mar 30 at 22:42






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
      $endgroup$
      – Bill Dubuque
      Mar 30 at 22:44
















    $begingroup$
    Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
    $endgroup$
    – IntegrateThis
    Mar 30 at 22:42




    $begingroup$
    Oh. Well now I'm embarassed, oh well better to have done this now then on a test or something.
    $endgroup$
    – IntegrateThis
    Mar 30 at 22:42




    2




    2




    $begingroup$
    It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
    $endgroup$
    – Bill Dubuque
    Mar 30 at 22:44





    $begingroup$
    It would have been better to answer this in a comment so that the OP could delete the question (which is surely a dupe)
    $endgroup$
    – Bill Dubuque
    Mar 30 at 22:44












    2












    $begingroup$

    I suspect the issue is that the author is using a different definition of product than you are.



    A fairly standard definition is something like the following:



    Let $n$ be a natural number, regarded as an ordinal, so $n=0,ldots,n-1$. Let $s:nto A$ be a map to a ring (or more generally a monoid).



    Then we define $prod_iin n s_i$, usually written as $prod_i=0^n-1 s_n$ recursively by $$prod_iin 0 s_i =1,$$ and $$prod_iin k+1 s_i = left(prod_iin k s_iright)cdot s_k.$$



    Note that this definition gives meaning to the notion of the empty and unary products.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$

















      2












      $begingroup$

      I suspect the issue is that the author is using a different definition of product than you are.



      A fairly standard definition is something like the following:



      Let $n$ be a natural number, regarded as an ordinal, so $n=0,ldots,n-1$. Let $s:nto A$ be a map to a ring (or more generally a monoid).



      Then we define $prod_iin n s_i$, usually written as $prod_i=0^n-1 s_n$ recursively by $$prod_iin 0 s_i =1,$$ and $$prod_iin k+1 s_i = left(prod_iin k s_iright)cdot s_k.$$



      Note that this definition gives meaning to the notion of the empty and unary products.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$















        2












        2








        2





        $begingroup$

        I suspect the issue is that the author is using a different definition of product than you are.



        A fairly standard definition is something like the following:



        Let $n$ be a natural number, regarded as an ordinal, so $n=0,ldots,n-1$. Let $s:nto A$ be a map to a ring (or more generally a monoid).



        Then we define $prod_iin n s_i$, usually written as $prod_i=0^n-1 s_n$ recursively by $$prod_iin 0 s_i =1,$$ and $$prod_iin k+1 s_i = left(prod_iin k s_iright)cdot s_k.$$



        Note that this definition gives meaning to the notion of the empty and unary products.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        I suspect the issue is that the author is using a different definition of product than you are.



        A fairly standard definition is something like the following:



        Let $n$ be a natural number, regarded as an ordinal, so $n=0,ldots,n-1$. Let $s:nto A$ be a map to a ring (or more generally a monoid).



        Then we define $prod_iin n s_i$, usually written as $prod_i=0^n-1 s_n$ recursively by $$prod_iin 0 s_i =1,$$ and $$prod_iin k+1 s_i = left(prod_iin k s_iright)cdot s_k.$$



        Note that this definition gives meaning to the notion of the empty and unary products.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Mar 30 at 22:46









        jgonjgon

        16.5k32143




        16.5k32143



























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