How find this limit $limlimits_xto 0^+fracsin(tanx)-tan(sinx)x^7$An almost impossible limitHow to find $lim_xto 0fracsintan x-tansin x7x^7$?How many times do you have to use L'Hôpital's rule?How prove this inequality $tan(sinx)>sin(tanx)$Compute $lim_limitsxto0^+fracpi/2- arctan(1/x^2)-sin(x^3)-1+cos(x)xtan(x)+e^x^3-1$$lim_x to 0fracx^3-sin^2xtan xtan(sin x) - sin (tan x)$How prove this nice limit $limlimits_ntoinftyfraca_nn=frac12log432$find this limit $lim_xto0^+fractan(tanx)-tan(sinx)tanx-sinx$How to find $limlimits_ntoinftysumlimits_j=1^n^2fracnn^2+j^2$How find this strange limitFind lim:$lim_xto0 fractan(tan x) - sin(sin x)tan x -sin x$Limit of $fractan^-1(sin^-1(x))-sin^-1(tan^-1(x))tan(sin(x))-sin(tan(x))$ as $x rightarrow 0$Find limit without using l'Hospital rule $limlimits_xrightarrow0fractan x-sin xx^3$Prove this limits with $sin(tanx)-tan(sinx)$Compute $limlimits_xto 0 fracsqrtsin(tan(x))sqrttan(sin(x))$How can I calculate $limlimits_xto 0 frac (sin(x)-tan(x))^2(e^x-1-ln(x+1))^3$?

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How find this limit $limlimits_xto 0^+fracsin(tanx)-tan(sinx)x^7$


An almost impossible limitHow to find $lim_xto 0fracsintan x-tansin x7x^7$?How many times do you have to use L'Hôpital's rule?How prove this inequality $tan(sinx)>sin(tanx)$Compute $lim_limitsxto0^+fracpi/2- arctan(1/x^2)-sin(x^3)-1+cos(x)xtan(x)+e^x^3-1$$lim_x to 0fracx^3-sin^2xtan xtan(sin x) - sin (tan x)$How prove this nice limit $limlimits_ntoinftyfraca_nn=frac12log432$find this limit $lim_xto0^+fractan(tanx)-tan(sinx)tanx-sinx$How to find $limlimits_ntoinftysumlimits_j=1^n^2fracnn^2+j^2$How find this strange limitFind lim:$lim_xto0 fractan(tan x) - sin(sin x)tan x -sin x$Limit of $fractan^-1(sin^-1(x))-sin^-1(tan^-1(x))tan(sin(x))-sin(tan(x))$ as $x rightarrow 0$Find limit without using l'Hospital rule $limlimits_xrightarrow0fractan x-sin xx^3$Prove this limits with $sin(tanx)-tan(sinx)$Compute $limlimits_xto 0 fracsqrtsin(tan(x))sqrttan(sin(x))$How can I calculate $limlimits_xto 0 frac (sin(x)-tan(x))^2(e^x-1-ln(x+1))^3$?













10












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find the limit




$$lim_xto 0^+dfracsin(tanx)-tan(sinx)x^7$$



My try:since
$$sinx=x-dfrac13!x^3+dfrac15!x^5-dfrac17!x^7+o(x^7)$$
$$tanx=x+dfrac13x^3+dfrac215x^5+dfrac163x^7+o(x^3)$$
so
$$sin(tanx)=tanx-dfrac13!(tanx)^3+dfrac15!(tanx)^5-dfrac17!(tanx)^7+o(x^7)$$
But this methods can solve,and I think this problem have nice methods,Thanks.











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  • 4




    $begingroup$
    The numerator appears in a well known problem from Arnold : MO thread.
    $endgroup$
    – Raymond Manzoni
    Nov 2 '13 at 9:57










  • $begingroup$
    I think this is different problem,But Thank you
    $endgroup$
    – china math
    Nov 2 '13 at 10:11















10












$begingroup$


find the limit




$$lim_xto 0^+dfracsin(tanx)-tan(sinx)x^7$$



My try:since
$$sinx=x-dfrac13!x^3+dfrac15!x^5-dfrac17!x^7+o(x^7)$$
$$tanx=x+dfrac13x^3+dfrac215x^5+dfrac163x^7+o(x^3)$$
so
$$sin(tanx)=tanx-dfrac13!(tanx)^3+dfrac15!(tanx)^5-dfrac17!(tanx)^7+o(x^7)$$
But this methods can solve,and I think this problem have nice methods,Thanks.











share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    The numerator appears in a well known problem from Arnold : MO thread.
    $endgroup$
    – Raymond Manzoni
    Nov 2 '13 at 9:57










  • $begingroup$
    I think this is different problem,But Thank you
    $endgroup$
    – china math
    Nov 2 '13 at 10:11













10












10








10


8



$begingroup$


find the limit




$$lim_xto 0^+dfracsin(tanx)-tan(sinx)x^7$$



My try:since
$$sinx=x-dfrac13!x^3+dfrac15!x^5-dfrac17!x^7+o(x^7)$$
$$tanx=x+dfrac13x^3+dfrac215x^5+dfrac163x^7+o(x^3)$$
so
$$sin(tanx)=tanx-dfrac13!(tanx)^3+dfrac15!(tanx)^5-dfrac17!(tanx)^7+o(x^7)$$
But this methods can solve,and I think this problem have nice methods,Thanks.











share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




find the limit




$$lim_xto 0^+dfracsin(tanx)-tan(sinx)x^7$$



My try:since
$$sinx=x-dfrac13!x^3+dfrac15!x^5-dfrac17!x^7+o(x^7)$$
$$tanx=x+dfrac13x^3+dfrac215x^5+dfrac163x^7+o(x^3)$$
so
$$sin(tanx)=tanx-dfrac13!(tanx)^3+dfrac15!(tanx)^5-dfrac17!(tanx)^7+o(x^7)$$
But this methods can solve,and I think this problem have nice methods,Thanks.








limits






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share|cite|improve this question













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share|cite|improve this question








edited Mar 29 at 14:12









J. M. is not a mathematician

61.2k5152290




61.2k5152290










asked Nov 2 '13 at 9:35









china mathchina math

10.2k631119




10.2k631119







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    The numerator appears in a well known problem from Arnold : MO thread.
    $endgroup$
    – Raymond Manzoni
    Nov 2 '13 at 9:57










  • $begingroup$
    I think this is different problem,But Thank you
    $endgroup$
    – china math
    Nov 2 '13 at 10:11












  • 4




    $begingroup$
    The numerator appears in a well known problem from Arnold : MO thread.
    $endgroup$
    – Raymond Manzoni
    Nov 2 '13 at 9:57










  • $begingroup$
    I think this is different problem,But Thank you
    $endgroup$
    – china math
    Nov 2 '13 at 10:11







4




4




$begingroup$
The numerator appears in a well known problem from Arnold : MO thread.
$endgroup$
– Raymond Manzoni
Nov 2 '13 at 9:57




$begingroup$
The numerator appears in a well known problem from Arnold : MO thread.
$endgroup$
– Raymond Manzoni
Nov 2 '13 at 9:57












$begingroup$
I think this is different problem,But Thank you
$endgroup$
– china math
Nov 2 '13 at 10:11




$begingroup$
I think this is different problem,But Thank you
$endgroup$
– china math
Nov 2 '13 at 10:11










7 Answers
7






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The interesting thing (which I cannot explain) is that if you have two odd functions
$$f(x)=x+a_3x^3+a_5 x^5+a_7 x^7+?x^9,quad g(x)=x+b_3x^3+b_5 x^5+b_7 x^7+?x^9$$
with $f'(0)=g'(0)=1$ (or $=-1$) then they "commute up to order 5", i.e.,
$$fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)= ?x^7qquad(xto0) .$$
To prove this we do the computation for $fbigl(g(x)bigr)$:
$$eqalignfbigl(g(x)bigr)&=x+(a_3+b_3)x^3+(a_5+3a_3b_3+b_5)x^5 + cr &qquadqquad(a_7+5a_5b_3+3a_3b_3^2+3a_3b_5+b_7)x^7 + ?x^9 .crtag1$$
We see that the coefficients of $x^3$ and $x^5$ both are symmetric in $a$ and $b$, and in addition $a_7+b_7$ will cancel when forming $fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)$. From inspection of $(1)$ we therefore can deduce that
$$fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)=bigl(2(a_5 b_3-a_3 b_5)+3(a_3b_3^2-a_3^2 b_3)bigr)x^7 + ?x^9 .$$
Inserting here the known coefficients for $sin$ and $tan$ we find that the limit in question is $-1over30$.






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    In this answer (to a question which was recently pointed out to be a duplicate of this one), I describe this commutation property in a slightly more generalized case. If the functions are like $x+a_nx^n+a_2n-1x^2n-1+a_3n-2x^3n-2+dots$ then the commutator is a function of $a_n$ and $a_2n-1$ from each function times $x^3n-2$ (plus smaller remainder).
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    – robjohn
    Apr 6 '14 at 17:57



















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For sure, L'Hopital's rule would be useful. But you could also use each Taylor expansion of $sin(x)$ and $tan(x)$ to expand $sin (tan (x))$ and $tan (sin (x))$. This would probably be tedious but it is doable (I made it).



Using what you wrote, you should arrive to $$sin (tan (x))=x+fracx^36-fracx^540-frac55 x^71008+Oleft(x^8right)$$ and $$tan (sin (x))=x+fracx^36-fracx^540-frac107 x^75040+Oleft(x^8right)$$ $$sin (tan (x))-tan (sin (x))=-fracx^730+Oleft(x^8right)$$






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    If you want to do it with Taylor expansions it's probably a good idea to start by substituting $x = arcsin t$, giving
    $$ lim_t to 0 fracsinleft(frac t sqrt1-t^2right) - tan t(arcsin t)^7$$
    Now use the expansion $$ frac t sqrt1-t^2 = sum_ngeq 0 binom -1/2 n (-1)^n t^2n+1 = sum_ngeq 0 frac(2n-1)!!n! 2^n t^2n+1$$
    and expand denominator and numerator to order $t^7$. This will still take some calculation but at least less than the naive method.






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    • $begingroup$
      then? Thank you +1
      $endgroup$
      – china math
      Nov 7 '13 at 3:28


















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    The function is of an indeterminate form, so use l'Hopital's Rule $7$ times.



    Note that



    this.



    At $x=0$, this is equal to $-168$. Taking the derivative of the denominator $7$ times, we get $7!=5040$. Thus, the answer is $$ - dfrac 1685040 = boxed - dfrac 130. $$






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    • 13




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      To apply L'Hopital 7 times, doesn't one need to show that the function and the first 6 derivatives are $0$?
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      – robjohn
      Apr 6 '14 at 13:52


















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    Why don't you try L'Hopital's rule? You have an indeterminate form $frac00 $






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    • 5




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      This will more ugly.
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      – china math
      Nov 2 '13 at 9:48






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      No. Just no. As china math said. Just no.
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      – Ahaan S. Rungta
      Nov 29 '13 at 15:09


















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    I'm going to throw my hat in with L'Hopital's Rule.



    The first non-zero derivative of the numerator at $x=0$ is the seventh;therefore, one can use L'Hopital's Rule until the denominator is a constant.



    Wolfram Alpha Link



    Therefore your limit is
    $$
    lim_xrightarrow 0^+ fracsin(tan(x))-tan(sin(x))x^7=frac-1685040=-frac130
    $$



    The value (viz. 0) of the lower-order derivatives can be easily checked in the above link using the same method as this one was computed (just with fewer derivative operators). Likewise, it is simple to check that $7!=5040$.






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      I already have a solution which uses some algebraic manipulation combined with Taylor series expansions, but I think it is worthwhile to find a neat solution based on L'Hospital's Rule.



      My idea is to find a suitable approximation for both the expressions $tan(sin x)$ and $sin(tan x)$. I start with a simple approximation and improve on it further. After some guess work and manipulation with various limits I found that the expression $(2x - sin x)$ acts as a very good approximation for both the expressions. This is justified by the existence of following limits
      beginalign
      lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) - (2x - sin x)x^5 = Atag1\
      lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) - (2x - sin x)x^5 = Btag2
      endalign
      The first limit is calculated as follows
      beginalign
      A &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xx^5notag\
      &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5xcdotfracsin^5xx^5notag\
      &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5xnotag\
      &= lim_t to 0fractan t + t - 2arcsin tt^5notag\
      &= lim_t to 0dfracsec^2t + 1 - dfrac2sqrt1 - t^25t^4text (by LHR)notag\
      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 - 2t^4sqrt1 - t^2notag\
      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 - 2t^4notag\
      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(2 + tan^2t)^2(1 - t^2) - 4t^4(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 + 2notag\
      &= frac120lim_t to 0frac(2 + tan^2t)^2(1 - t^2) - 4t^4notag\
      &= frac120lim_t to 0frac4tan^2t + tan^4t - 4t^2 - 4t^2tan^2t - t^2tan^4tt^4notag\
      &= frac120left(lim_t to 0frac4(tan^2t - t^2)t^4 + fractan^4tt^4 - 4fractan^2tt^2 - t^2fractan^4tt^4right)notag\
      &= frac15lim_t to 0fractan^2 - t^2t^4 - frac320notag\
      &= -frac320 + frac15lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3cdotlim_t to 0fractan t + ttnotag\
      &= -frac320 + frac25lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3notag\
      &= -frac320 + frac25lim_t to 0fracsec^2t - 13t^2text (by LHR)notag\
      &= -frac320 + frac215 = -frac160notag
      endalign
      For the second limit we proceed in similar manner
      beginalign
      B &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xx^5notag\
      &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5xcdotfractan^5xx^5notag\
      &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5xnotag\
      &= lim_t to 0dfracsin t + dfractsqrt1 + t^2 - 2tan^-1tt^5notag\
      &= lim_t to 0dfraccos t + dfrac1(1 + t^2)^3/2 - dfrac21 + t^25t^4text (via LHR)notag\
      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfraccos t(1 + t^2)^3/2 + 1 - 2sqrt1 + t^2t^4(1 + t^2)^3/2notag\
      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)cos t - 2sqrt1 + t^2 + 1t^4notag\
      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)cos t - 2^2(1 + t^2) - 1t^4[(1 + t^2)cos t - 2sqrt1 + t^2 - 1]notag\
      &= -frac110lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)^2cos^2t + 4 - 4(1 + t^2)cos t(1 + t^2) - 1t^4notag\
      &= -frac110lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^4 + 2t^2)(1 - sin^2t) + 4 - 4(1 + t^2)(1 - 2sin^2(t/2))(1 + t^2) - 1t^4notag\
      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - sin^2t - t^2t^4right.notag\
      &,,,,,,,+ dfrac16sin^2(t/2) - 3sin^2tt^2notag\
      &,,,,,,,+ (-1 - 3sin^2t + 8sin^2(t/2))notag\
      &,,,,,,,+ left.dfrac(1 - sin^2t)t^6t^4right)notag\
      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - sin^2t - t^2t^4 + 4 - 3 - 1 + 0right)notag\
      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - 2sin^2t + sin^2t - t^2t^4right)notag\
      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - 8sin^2(t/2)cos^2(t/2)t^4 + fracsin t - tt^3cdotfracsin t + ttright)notag\
      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^4(t/2)t^4 - frac13right)notag\
      &= -frac110left(frac12 - frac13right) = -frac160notag
      endalign
      From these limit $(1), (2)$ we easily get
      beginalign
      lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5x &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xx^5cdotfracx^5sin^5x = -frac160tag3\
      lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5x &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xx^5cdotfracx^5tan^5x = -frac160tag4
      endalign
      From these equations we get the next level of approximations
      beginalign
      tan(sin x) &approx 2x - sin x - fracsin^5x60notag\
      sin(tan x) &approx 2x - sin x - fractan^5x60notag
      endalign
      Our claim is that the following limits exist
      beginalign
      lim_x to 0dfracsin(tan x) - 2x + sin x + dfractan^5x60x^7 &= Ctag5\
      lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60x^7 &= Dtag6
      endalign
      Let the desired limit in question be $L$ i.e. $$L = lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) - tan(sin x)x^7tag7$$ Subtracting $(6)$ from $(5)$ we get $$L + frac160lim_x to 0fractan^5x - sin^5xx^7 = C - Dtag8$$ Now it is easy to see that
      beginalign
      E &= lim_x to 0fractan^5x - sin^5xx^7notag\
      &= lim_x to 0fractan x - sin xx^3cdotfractan^4x + tan^3xsin x + tan^2xsin^2x + tan xsin^3x + sin^4xx^4notag\
      &= 5lim_x to 0fracsin x(1 - cos x)x^3cos xnotag\
      &= 5lim_x to 0fracsin xxcdotfrac1 - cos xx^2notag\
      &= frac52notag
      endalign
      From equation $(8)$ we can see that $L = C - D - (1/24)$. It remains to evaluate $C$ and $D$ which can be done in a manner similar to the evaluation of $A$ and $B$. We will provide here the calculation for the simpler limit $D$ and let readers evaluate $C$ by themselves. We can thus proceed as follows
      beginalign
      D &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60x^7notag\
      &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60sin^7xcdotfracsin^7xx^7notag\
      &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60sin^7xnotag\
      &= lim_t to 0dfractan t - 2sin^-1t + t + dfract^560t^7notag\
      &= frac160lim_t to 0dfrac60tan t - 120sin^-1t + 60t + t^5t^7notag\
      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60sec^2t - dfrac120sqrt1 - t^2 + 60 + 5t^4t^6text (via LHR)notag\
      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 - 120t^6sqrt1 - t^2notag\
      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 - 120t^6notag\
      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4^2(1 - t^2) - 120^2t^6[60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 + 120]notag\
      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4^2(1 - t^2) - 120^2t^6notag\
      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0left(frac60^2tan^4t + 1200t^4 + 120^2(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6right.notag\
      &,,,,,,,,+frac600t^4tan^2t - 60^2t^2tan^4t - 1200t^6t^6notag\
      &,,,,,,,,+left. frac- 600t^6tan^2t + 25t^8 - 25t^10t^6right)notag\
      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0left(1200cdotfrac3tan^4t + t^4 + 12(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6 - 4200 + 0right)notag\
      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0frac3tan^4t + t^4 + 12(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6notag\
      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0frac3(tan^4 - t^4) - 12t^2(tan^2t - t^2) + 12(tan t - t)^2 + 8t(3tan t- 3t- t^3)t^6notag\
      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0left(3cdotfractan t - tt^3cdotfractan^3t + ttan^2t + t^2tan t + t^3t^3right.notag\
      &,,,,,,,, -12cdot fractan t - tt^3cdotfractan t + ttnotag\
      &,,,,,,,, + 12cdotleft(fractan t - tt^3right)^2notag\
      &,,,,,,,, + left. 8cdotfrac3tan t - 3t - t^3t^5right)notag\
      &= -frac124 - frac263 + frac221lim_t to 0frac3tan t - 3t - t^3t^5notag\
      &= -frac37504 + frac2105lim_t to 0frac3sec^2t - 3 - 3t^2t^4text (via LHR)notag\
      &= -frac37504 + frac235lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3cdotfractan t + ttnotag\
      &= -frac37504 + frac4105 = -frac892520notag
      endalign
      A similar but somewhat lengthy calculation shows that the limit $C = -17/630$ and hence desired limit $L = -1/30$.



      In the above solution we make use of the following limits $$lim_x to 0fracsin x - xx^3 = -frac16,,lim_x to 0fractan x - xx^3 = frac13$$ which are easily evaluated via one application of L'Hospital's rule.



      Needless to say that the above approach uses heavy algebraic manipulation and expresses the given problem as equivalent of 4 tough limit problems $(1), (2), (5), (6)$. Moreover for calculation of the desired limit $L$ we only need to calculate limits $C, D$. The limits $A, B$ are needed to guess the limit expression used for $C, D$. It is thus evident that after a certain point Taylor's series approach is far more favorable compared to the L'Hospital's rule. Moreover L'Hospital's rule is effective only when it is combined with a reasonable level of algebraic manipulation. One should always avoid repeated application of LHR in successive steps.



      Also note that we did not use the approximation $$2x - sin x - fracx^560$$ for both $sin(tan x)$ and $tan(sin x)$ based on limits $(1)$ and $(2)$. Doing this would have made the difference $sin(tan x) - tan(sin x)$ as $0$. Instead the term $x^5$ was replaced very smartly with $sin^5x$ in one case and $tan^5x$ in another case because of the limit $E$ which is related to the difference $tan^5x - sin^5x$.



      A final point which I wish to make is that this approach starts with the initial approximation $(2x - sin x)$ which is fairly accurate. It may be possible that there is a simpler approximation which makes the calculations much easier.






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      • $begingroup$
        Good ideas. Congratulations.
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        – Idris
        Jun 20 '15 at 8:30










      • $begingroup$
        Thanks for this answer. I have been trying this for hours. Zero votes for this answer is a shame. +1.
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        – A---B
        Dec 4 '16 at 9:05






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @A---B: finally someone liked it.
        $endgroup$
        – Paramanand Singh
        Dec 4 '16 at 14:03










      • $begingroup$
        Thanks to those who pride themselves on anonymous downvotes!!
        $endgroup$
        – Paramanand Singh
        Nov 10 '17 at 16:03











      Your Answer





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      7 Answers
      7






      active

      oldest

      votes








      7 Answers
      7






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      22





      +50







      $begingroup$

      The interesting thing (which I cannot explain) is that if you have two odd functions
      $$f(x)=x+a_3x^3+a_5 x^5+a_7 x^7+?x^9,quad g(x)=x+b_3x^3+b_5 x^5+b_7 x^7+?x^9$$
      with $f'(0)=g'(0)=1$ (or $=-1$) then they "commute up to order 5", i.e.,
      $$fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)= ?x^7qquad(xto0) .$$
      To prove this we do the computation for $fbigl(g(x)bigr)$:
      $$eqalignfbigl(g(x)bigr)&=x+(a_3+b_3)x^3+(a_5+3a_3b_3+b_5)x^5 + cr &qquadqquad(a_7+5a_5b_3+3a_3b_3^2+3a_3b_5+b_7)x^7 + ?x^9 .crtag1$$
      We see that the coefficients of $x^3$ and $x^5$ both are symmetric in $a$ and $b$, and in addition $a_7+b_7$ will cancel when forming $fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)$. From inspection of $(1)$ we therefore can deduce that
      $$fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)=bigl(2(a_5 b_3-a_3 b_5)+3(a_3b_3^2-a_3^2 b_3)bigr)x^7 + ?x^9 .$$
      Inserting here the known coefficients for $sin$ and $tan$ we find that the limit in question is $-1over30$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        In this answer (to a question which was recently pointed out to be a duplicate of this one), I describe this commutation property in a slightly more generalized case. If the functions are like $x+a_nx^n+a_2n-1x^2n-1+a_3n-2x^3n-2+dots$ then the commutator is a function of $a_n$ and $a_2n-1$ from each function times $x^3n-2$ (plus smaller remainder).
        $endgroup$
        – robjohn
        Apr 6 '14 at 17:57
















      22





      +50







      $begingroup$

      The interesting thing (which I cannot explain) is that if you have two odd functions
      $$f(x)=x+a_3x^3+a_5 x^5+a_7 x^7+?x^9,quad g(x)=x+b_3x^3+b_5 x^5+b_7 x^7+?x^9$$
      with $f'(0)=g'(0)=1$ (or $=-1$) then they "commute up to order 5", i.e.,
      $$fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)= ?x^7qquad(xto0) .$$
      To prove this we do the computation for $fbigl(g(x)bigr)$:
      $$eqalignfbigl(g(x)bigr)&=x+(a_3+b_3)x^3+(a_5+3a_3b_3+b_5)x^5 + cr &qquadqquad(a_7+5a_5b_3+3a_3b_3^2+3a_3b_5+b_7)x^7 + ?x^9 .crtag1$$
      We see that the coefficients of $x^3$ and $x^5$ both are symmetric in $a$ and $b$, and in addition $a_7+b_7$ will cancel when forming $fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)$. From inspection of $(1)$ we therefore can deduce that
      $$fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)=bigl(2(a_5 b_3-a_3 b_5)+3(a_3b_3^2-a_3^2 b_3)bigr)x^7 + ?x^9 .$$
      Inserting here the known coefficients for $sin$ and $tan$ we find that the limit in question is $-1over30$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        In this answer (to a question which was recently pointed out to be a duplicate of this one), I describe this commutation property in a slightly more generalized case. If the functions are like $x+a_nx^n+a_2n-1x^2n-1+a_3n-2x^3n-2+dots$ then the commutator is a function of $a_n$ and $a_2n-1$ from each function times $x^3n-2$ (plus smaller remainder).
        $endgroup$
        – robjohn
        Apr 6 '14 at 17:57














      22





      +50







      22





      +50



      22




      +50



      $begingroup$

      The interesting thing (which I cannot explain) is that if you have two odd functions
      $$f(x)=x+a_3x^3+a_5 x^5+a_7 x^7+?x^9,quad g(x)=x+b_3x^3+b_5 x^5+b_7 x^7+?x^9$$
      with $f'(0)=g'(0)=1$ (or $=-1$) then they "commute up to order 5", i.e.,
      $$fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)= ?x^7qquad(xto0) .$$
      To prove this we do the computation for $fbigl(g(x)bigr)$:
      $$eqalignfbigl(g(x)bigr)&=x+(a_3+b_3)x^3+(a_5+3a_3b_3+b_5)x^5 + cr &qquadqquad(a_7+5a_5b_3+3a_3b_3^2+3a_3b_5+b_7)x^7 + ?x^9 .crtag1$$
      We see that the coefficients of $x^3$ and $x^5$ both are symmetric in $a$ and $b$, and in addition $a_7+b_7$ will cancel when forming $fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)$. From inspection of $(1)$ we therefore can deduce that
      $$fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)=bigl(2(a_5 b_3-a_3 b_5)+3(a_3b_3^2-a_3^2 b_3)bigr)x^7 + ?x^9 .$$
      Inserting here the known coefficients for $sin$ and $tan$ we find that the limit in question is $-1over30$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      The interesting thing (which I cannot explain) is that if you have two odd functions
      $$f(x)=x+a_3x^3+a_5 x^5+a_7 x^7+?x^9,quad g(x)=x+b_3x^3+b_5 x^5+b_7 x^7+?x^9$$
      with $f'(0)=g'(0)=1$ (or $=-1$) then they "commute up to order 5", i.e.,
      $$fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)= ?x^7qquad(xto0) .$$
      To prove this we do the computation for $fbigl(g(x)bigr)$:
      $$eqalignfbigl(g(x)bigr)&=x+(a_3+b_3)x^3+(a_5+3a_3b_3+b_5)x^5 + cr &qquadqquad(a_7+5a_5b_3+3a_3b_3^2+3a_3b_5+b_7)x^7 + ?x^9 .crtag1$$
      We see that the coefficients of $x^3$ and $x^5$ both are symmetric in $a$ and $b$, and in addition $a_7+b_7$ will cancel when forming $fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)$. From inspection of $(1)$ we therefore can deduce that
      $$fbigl(g(x)bigr)-gbigl(f(x)bigr)=bigl(2(a_5 b_3-a_3 b_5)+3(a_3b_3^2-a_3^2 b_3)bigr)x^7 + ?x^9 .$$
      Inserting here the known coefficients for $sin$ and $tan$ we find that the limit in question is $-1over30$.







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered Nov 5 '13 at 15:22









      Christian BlatterChristian Blatter

      176k8115328




      176k8115328







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        In this answer (to a question which was recently pointed out to be a duplicate of this one), I describe this commutation property in a slightly more generalized case. If the functions are like $x+a_nx^n+a_2n-1x^2n-1+a_3n-2x^3n-2+dots$ then the commutator is a function of $a_n$ and $a_2n-1$ from each function times $x^3n-2$ (plus smaller remainder).
        $endgroup$
        – robjohn
        Apr 6 '14 at 17:57













      • 1




        $begingroup$
        In this answer (to a question which was recently pointed out to be a duplicate of this one), I describe this commutation property in a slightly more generalized case. If the functions are like $x+a_nx^n+a_2n-1x^2n-1+a_3n-2x^3n-2+dots$ then the commutator is a function of $a_n$ and $a_2n-1$ from each function times $x^3n-2$ (plus smaller remainder).
        $endgroup$
        – robjohn
        Apr 6 '14 at 17:57








      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      In this answer (to a question which was recently pointed out to be a duplicate of this one), I describe this commutation property in a slightly more generalized case. If the functions are like $x+a_nx^n+a_2n-1x^2n-1+a_3n-2x^3n-2+dots$ then the commutator is a function of $a_n$ and $a_2n-1$ from each function times $x^3n-2$ (plus smaller remainder).
      $endgroup$
      – robjohn
      Apr 6 '14 at 17:57





      $begingroup$
      In this answer (to a question which was recently pointed out to be a duplicate of this one), I describe this commutation property in a slightly more generalized case. If the functions are like $x+a_nx^n+a_2n-1x^2n-1+a_3n-2x^3n-2+dots$ then the commutator is a function of $a_n$ and $a_2n-1$ from each function times $x^3n-2$ (plus smaller remainder).
      $endgroup$
      – robjohn
      Apr 6 '14 at 17:57












      4












      $begingroup$

      For sure, L'Hopital's rule would be useful. But you could also use each Taylor expansion of $sin(x)$ and $tan(x)$ to expand $sin (tan (x))$ and $tan (sin (x))$. This would probably be tedious but it is doable (I made it).



      Using what you wrote, you should arrive to $$sin (tan (x))=x+fracx^36-fracx^540-frac55 x^71008+Oleft(x^8right)$$ and $$tan (sin (x))=x+fracx^36-fracx^540-frac107 x^75040+Oleft(x^8right)$$ $$sin (tan (x))-tan (sin (x))=-fracx^730+Oleft(x^8right)$$






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$

















        4












        $begingroup$

        For sure, L'Hopital's rule would be useful. But you could also use each Taylor expansion of $sin(x)$ and $tan(x)$ to expand $sin (tan (x))$ and $tan (sin (x))$. This would probably be tedious but it is doable (I made it).



        Using what you wrote, you should arrive to $$sin (tan (x))=x+fracx^36-fracx^540-frac55 x^71008+Oleft(x^8right)$$ and $$tan (sin (x))=x+fracx^36-fracx^540-frac107 x^75040+Oleft(x^8right)$$ $$sin (tan (x))-tan (sin (x))=-fracx^730+Oleft(x^8right)$$






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$















          4












          4








          4





          $begingroup$

          For sure, L'Hopital's rule would be useful. But you could also use each Taylor expansion of $sin(x)$ and $tan(x)$ to expand $sin (tan (x))$ and $tan (sin (x))$. This would probably be tedious but it is doable (I made it).



          Using what you wrote, you should arrive to $$sin (tan (x))=x+fracx^36-fracx^540-frac55 x^71008+Oleft(x^8right)$$ and $$tan (sin (x))=x+fracx^36-fracx^540-frac107 x^75040+Oleft(x^8right)$$ $$sin (tan (x))-tan (sin (x))=-fracx^730+Oleft(x^8right)$$






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          For sure, L'Hopital's rule would be useful. But you could also use each Taylor expansion of $sin(x)$ and $tan(x)$ to expand $sin (tan (x))$ and $tan (sin (x))$. This would probably be tedious but it is doable (I made it).



          Using what you wrote, you should arrive to $$sin (tan (x))=x+fracx^36-fracx^540-frac55 x^71008+Oleft(x^8right)$$ and $$tan (sin (x))=x+fracx^36-fracx^540-frac107 x^75040+Oleft(x^8right)$$ $$sin (tan (x))-tan (sin (x))=-fracx^730+Oleft(x^8right)$$







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Feb 14 '17 at 10:54

























          answered Nov 2 '13 at 9:55









          Claude LeiboviciClaude Leibovici

          125k1158135




          125k1158135





















              3












              $begingroup$

              If you want to do it with Taylor expansions it's probably a good idea to start by substituting $x = arcsin t$, giving
              $$ lim_t to 0 fracsinleft(frac t sqrt1-t^2right) - tan t(arcsin t)^7$$
              Now use the expansion $$ frac t sqrt1-t^2 = sum_ngeq 0 binom -1/2 n (-1)^n t^2n+1 = sum_ngeq 0 frac(2n-1)!!n! 2^n t^2n+1$$
              and expand denominator and numerator to order $t^7$. This will still take some calculation but at least less than the naive method.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$












              • $begingroup$
                then? Thank you +1
                $endgroup$
                – china math
                Nov 7 '13 at 3:28















              3












              $begingroup$

              If you want to do it with Taylor expansions it's probably a good idea to start by substituting $x = arcsin t$, giving
              $$ lim_t to 0 fracsinleft(frac t sqrt1-t^2right) - tan t(arcsin t)^7$$
              Now use the expansion $$ frac t sqrt1-t^2 = sum_ngeq 0 binom -1/2 n (-1)^n t^2n+1 = sum_ngeq 0 frac(2n-1)!!n! 2^n t^2n+1$$
              and expand denominator and numerator to order $t^7$. This will still take some calculation but at least less than the naive method.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$












              • $begingroup$
                then? Thank you +1
                $endgroup$
                – china math
                Nov 7 '13 at 3:28













              3












              3








              3





              $begingroup$

              If you want to do it with Taylor expansions it's probably a good idea to start by substituting $x = arcsin t$, giving
              $$ lim_t to 0 fracsinleft(frac t sqrt1-t^2right) - tan t(arcsin t)^7$$
              Now use the expansion $$ frac t sqrt1-t^2 = sum_ngeq 0 binom -1/2 n (-1)^n t^2n+1 = sum_ngeq 0 frac(2n-1)!!n! 2^n t^2n+1$$
              and expand denominator and numerator to order $t^7$. This will still take some calculation but at least less than the naive method.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              If you want to do it with Taylor expansions it's probably a good idea to start by substituting $x = arcsin t$, giving
              $$ lim_t to 0 fracsinleft(frac t sqrt1-t^2right) - tan t(arcsin t)^7$$
              Now use the expansion $$ frac t sqrt1-t^2 = sum_ngeq 0 binom -1/2 n (-1)^n t^2n+1 = sum_ngeq 0 frac(2n-1)!!n! 2^n t^2n+1$$
              and expand denominator and numerator to order $t^7$. This will still take some calculation but at least less than the naive method.







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered Nov 2 '13 at 10:25









              Dan PetersenDan Petersen

              5,49421929




              5,49421929











              • $begingroup$
                then? Thank you +1
                $endgroup$
                – china math
                Nov 7 '13 at 3:28
















              • $begingroup$
                then? Thank you +1
                $endgroup$
                – china math
                Nov 7 '13 at 3:28















              $begingroup$
              then? Thank you +1
              $endgroup$
              – china math
              Nov 7 '13 at 3:28




              $begingroup$
              then? Thank you +1
              $endgroup$
              – china math
              Nov 7 '13 at 3:28











              3












              $begingroup$

              The function is of an indeterminate form, so use l'Hopital's Rule $7$ times.



              Note that



              this.



              At $x=0$, this is equal to $-168$. Taking the derivative of the denominator $7$ times, we get $7!=5040$. Thus, the answer is $$ - dfrac 1685040 = boxed - dfrac 130. $$






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$








              • 13




                $begingroup$
                To apply L'Hopital 7 times, doesn't one need to show that the function and the first 6 derivatives are $0$?
                $endgroup$
                – robjohn
                Apr 6 '14 at 13:52















              3












              $begingroup$

              The function is of an indeterminate form, so use l'Hopital's Rule $7$ times.



              Note that



              this.



              At $x=0$, this is equal to $-168$. Taking the derivative of the denominator $7$ times, we get $7!=5040$. Thus, the answer is $$ - dfrac 1685040 = boxed - dfrac 130. $$






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$








              • 13




                $begingroup$
                To apply L'Hopital 7 times, doesn't one need to show that the function and the first 6 derivatives are $0$?
                $endgroup$
                – robjohn
                Apr 6 '14 at 13:52













              3












              3








              3





              $begingroup$

              The function is of an indeterminate form, so use l'Hopital's Rule $7$ times.



              Note that



              this.



              At $x=0$, this is equal to $-168$. Taking the derivative of the denominator $7$ times, we get $7!=5040$. Thus, the answer is $$ - dfrac 1685040 = boxed - dfrac 130. $$






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              The function is of an indeterminate form, so use l'Hopital's Rule $7$ times.



              Note that



              this.



              At $x=0$, this is equal to $-168$. Taking the derivative of the denominator $7$ times, we get $7!=5040$. Thus, the answer is $$ - dfrac 1685040 = boxed - dfrac 130. $$







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered Nov 5 '13 at 15:58









              Ahaan S. RungtaAhaan S. Rungta

              6,53352161




              6,53352161







              • 13




                $begingroup$
                To apply L'Hopital 7 times, doesn't one need to show that the function and the first 6 derivatives are $0$?
                $endgroup$
                – robjohn
                Apr 6 '14 at 13:52












              • 13




                $begingroup$
                To apply L'Hopital 7 times, doesn't one need to show that the function and the first 6 derivatives are $0$?
                $endgroup$
                – robjohn
                Apr 6 '14 at 13:52







              13




              13




              $begingroup$
              To apply L'Hopital 7 times, doesn't one need to show that the function and the first 6 derivatives are $0$?
              $endgroup$
              – robjohn
              Apr 6 '14 at 13:52




              $begingroup$
              To apply L'Hopital 7 times, doesn't one need to show that the function and the first 6 derivatives are $0$?
              $endgroup$
              – robjohn
              Apr 6 '14 at 13:52











              1












              $begingroup$

              Why don't you try L'Hopital's rule? You have an indeterminate form $frac00 $






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$








              • 5




                $begingroup$
                This will more ugly.
                $endgroup$
                – china math
                Nov 2 '13 at 9:48






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                No. Just no. As china math said. Just no.
                $endgroup$
                – Ahaan S. Rungta
                Nov 29 '13 at 15:09















              1












              $begingroup$

              Why don't you try L'Hopital's rule? You have an indeterminate form $frac00 $






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$








              • 5




                $begingroup$
                This will more ugly.
                $endgroup$
                – china math
                Nov 2 '13 at 9:48






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                No. Just no. As china math said. Just no.
                $endgroup$
                – Ahaan S. Rungta
                Nov 29 '13 at 15:09













              1












              1








              1





              $begingroup$

              Why don't you try L'Hopital's rule? You have an indeterminate form $frac00 $






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              Why don't you try L'Hopital's rule? You have an indeterminate form $frac00 $







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered Nov 2 '13 at 9:44









              JohnKJohnK

              2,88211739




              2,88211739







              • 5




                $begingroup$
                This will more ugly.
                $endgroup$
                – china math
                Nov 2 '13 at 9:48






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                No. Just no. As china math said. Just no.
                $endgroup$
                – Ahaan S. Rungta
                Nov 29 '13 at 15:09












              • 5




                $begingroup$
                This will more ugly.
                $endgroup$
                – china math
                Nov 2 '13 at 9:48






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                No. Just no. As china math said. Just no.
                $endgroup$
                – Ahaan S. Rungta
                Nov 29 '13 at 15:09







              5




              5




              $begingroup$
              This will more ugly.
              $endgroup$
              – china math
              Nov 2 '13 at 9:48




              $begingroup$
              This will more ugly.
              $endgroup$
              – china math
              Nov 2 '13 at 9:48




              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              No. Just no. As china math said. Just no.
              $endgroup$
              – Ahaan S. Rungta
              Nov 29 '13 at 15:09




              $begingroup$
              No. Just no. As china math said. Just no.
              $endgroup$
              – Ahaan S. Rungta
              Nov 29 '13 at 15:09











              1












              $begingroup$

              I'm going to throw my hat in with L'Hopital's Rule.



              The first non-zero derivative of the numerator at $x=0$ is the seventh;therefore, one can use L'Hopital's Rule until the denominator is a constant.



              Wolfram Alpha Link



              Therefore your limit is
              $$
              lim_xrightarrow 0^+ fracsin(tan(x))-tan(sin(x))x^7=frac-1685040=-frac130
              $$



              The value (viz. 0) of the lower-order derivatives can be easily checked in the above link using the same method as this one was computed (just with fewer derivative operators). Likewise, it is simple to check that $7!=5040$.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                1












                $begingroup$

                I'm going to throw my hat in with L'Hopital's Rule.



                The first non-zero derivative of the numerator at $x=0$ is the seventh;therefore, one can use L'Hopital's Rule until the denominator is a constant.



                Wolfram Alpha Link



                Therefore your limit is
                $$
                lim_xrightarrow 0^+ fracsin(tan(x))-tan(sin(x))x^7=frac-1685040=-frac130
                $$



                The value (viz. 0) of the lower-order derivatives can be easily checked in the above link using the same method as this one was computed (just with fewer derivative operators). Likewise, it is simple to check that $7!=5040$.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  1












                  1








                  1





                  $begingroup$

                  I'm going to throw my hat in with L'Hopital's Rule.



                  The first non-zero derivative of the numerator at $x=0$ is the seventh;therefore, one can use L'Hopital's Rule until the denominator is a constant.



                  Wolfram Alpha Link



                  Therefore your limit is
                  $$
                  lim_xrightarrow 0^+ fracsin(tan(x))-tan(sin(x))x^7=frac-1685040=-frac130
                  $$



                  The value (viz. 0) of the lower-order derivatives can be easily checked in the above link using the same method as this one was computed (just with fewer derivative operators). Likewise, it is simple to check that $7!=5040$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  I'm going to throw my hat in with L'Hopital's Rule.



                  The first non-zero derivative of the numerator at $x=0$ is the seventh;therefore, one can use L'Hopital's Rule until the denominator is a constant.



                  Wolfram Alpha Link



                  Therefore your limit is
                  $$
                  lim_xrightarrow 0^+ fracsin(tan(x))-tan(sin(x))x^7=frac-1685040=-frac130
                  $$



                  The value (viz. 0) of the lower-order derivatives can be easily checked in the above link using the same method as this one was computed (just with fewer derivative operators). Likewise, it is simple to check that $7!=5040$.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Nov 5 '13 at 15:50









                  GeoffreyGeoffrey

                  1,229722




                  1,229722





















                      0












                      $begingroup$

                      I already have a solution which uses some algebraic manipulation combined with Taylor series expansions, but I think it is worthwhile to find a neat solution based on L'Hospital's Rule.



                      My idea is to find a suitable approximation for both the expressions $tan(sin x)$ and $sin(tan x)$. I start with a simple approximation and improve on it further. After some guess work and manipulation with various limits I found that the expression $(2x - sin x)$ acts as a very good approximation for both the expressions. This is justified by the existence of following limits
                      beginalign
                      lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) - (2x - sin x)x^5 = Atag1\
                      lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) - (2x - sin x)x^5 = Btag2
                      endalign
                      The first limit is calculated as follows
                      beginalign
                      A &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5xcdotfracsin^5xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5xnotag\
                      &= lim_t to 0fractan t + t - 2arcsin tt^5notag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfracsec^2t + 1 - dfrac2sqrt1 - t^25t^4text (by LHR)notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 - 2t^4sqrt1 - t^2notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 - 2t^4notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(2 + tan^2t)^2(1 - t^2) - 4t^4(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 + 2notag\
                      &= frac120lim_t to 0frac(2 + tan^2t)^2(1 - t^2) - 4t^4notag\
                      &= frac120lim_t to 0frac4tan^2t + tan^4t - 4t^2 - 4t^2tan^2t - t^2tan^4tt^4notag\
                      &= frac120left(lim_t to 0frac4(tan^2t - t^2)t^4 + fractan^4tt^4 - 4fractan^2tt^2 - t^2fractan^4tt^4right)notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0fractan^2 - t^2t^4 - frac320notag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac15lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3cdotlim_t to 0fractan t + ttnotag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac25lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3notag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac25lim_t to 0fracsec^2t - 13t^2text (by LHR)notag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac215 = -frac160notag
                      endalign
                      For the second limit we proceed in similar manner
                      beginalign
                      B &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5xcdotfractan^5xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5xnotag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfracsin t + dfractsqrt1 + t^2 - 2tan^-1tt^5notag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfraccos t + dfrac1(1 + t^2)^3/2 - dfrac21 + t^25t^4text (via LHR)notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfraccos t(1 + t^2)^3/2 + 1 - 2sqrt1 + t^2t^4(1 + t^2)^3/2notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)cos t - 2sqrt1 + t^2 + 1t^4notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)cos t - 2^2(1 + t^2) - 1t^4[(1 + t^2)cos t - 2sqrt1 + t^2 - 1]notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)^2cos^2t + 4 - 4(1 + t^2)cos t(1 + t^2) - 1t^4notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^4 + 2t^2)(1 - sin^2t) + 4 - 4(1 + t^2)(1 - 2sin^2(t/2))(1 + t^2) - 1t^4notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - sin^2t - t^2t^4right.notag\
                      &,,,,,,,+ dfrac16sin^2(t/2) - 3sin^2tt^2notag\
                      &,,,,,,,+ (-1 - 3sin^2t + 8sin^2(t/2))notag\
                      &,,,,,,,+ left.dfrac(1 - sin^2t)t^6t^4right)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - sin^2t - t^2t^4 + 4 - 3 - 1 + 0right)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - 2sin^2t + sin^2t - t^2t^4right)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - 8sin^2(t/2)cos^2(t/2)t^4 + fracsin t - tt^3cdotfracsin t + ttright)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^4(t/2)t^4 - frac13right)notag\
                      &= -frac110left(frac12 - frac13right) = -frac160notag
                      endalign
                      From these limit $(1), (2)$ we easily get
                      beginalign
                      lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5x &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xx^5cdotfracx^5sin^5x = -frac160tag3\
                      lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5x &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xx^5cdotfracx^5tan^5x = -frac160tag4
                      endalign
                      From these equations we get the next level of approximations
                      beginalign
                      tan(sin x) &approx 2x - sin x - fracsin^5x60notag\
                      sin(tan x) &approx 2x - sin x - fractan^5x60notag
                      endalign
                      Our claim is that the following limits exist
                      beginalign
                      lim_x to 0dfracsin(tan x) - 2x + sin x + dfractan^5x60x^7 &= Ctag5\
                      lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60x^7 &= Dtag6
                      endalign
                      Let the desired limit in question be $L$ i.e. $$L = lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) - tan(sin x)x^7tag7$$ Subtracting $(6)$ from $(5)$ we get $$L + frac160lim_x to 0fractan^5x - sin^5xx^7 = C - Dtag8$$ Now it is easy to see that
                      beginalign
                      E &= lim_x to 0fractan^5x - sin^5xx^7notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fractan x - sin xx^3cdotfractan^4x + tan^3xsin x + tan^2xsin^2x + tan xsin^3x + sin^4xx^4notag\
                      &= 5lim_x to 0fracsin x(1 - cos x)x^3cos xnotag\
                      &= 5lim_x to 0fracsin xxcdotfrac1 - cos xx^2notag\
                      &= frac52notag
                      endalign
                      From equation $(8)$ we can see that $L = C - D - (1/24)$. It remains to evaluate $C$ and $D$ which can be done in a manner similar to the evaluation of $A$ and $B$. We will provide here the calculation for the simpler limit $D$ and let readers evaluate $C$ by themselves. We can thus proceed as follows
                      beginalign
                      D &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60x^7notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60sin^7xcdotfracsin^7xx^7notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60sin^7xnotag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfractan t - 2sin^-1t + t + dfract^560t^7notag\
                      &= frac160lim_t to 0dfrac60tan t - 120sin^-1t + 60t + t^5t^7notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60sec^2t - dfrac120sqrt1 - t^2 + 60 + 5t^4t^6text (via LHR)notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 - 120t^6sqrt1 - t^2notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 - 120t^6notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4^2(1 - t^2) - 120^2t^6[60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 + 120]notag\
                      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4^2(1 - t^2) - 120^2t^6notag\
                      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0left(frac60^2tan^4t + 1200t^4 + 120^2(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6right.notag\
                      &,,,,,,,,+frac600t^4tan^2t - 60^2t^2tan^4t - 1200t^6t^6notag\
                      &,,,,,,,,+left. frac- 600t^6tan^2t + 25t^8 - 25t^10t^6right)notag\
                      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0left(1200cdotfrac3tan^4t + t^4 + 12(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6 - 4200 + 0right)notag\
                      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0frac3tan^4t + t^4 + 12(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6notag\
                      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0frac3(tan^4 - t^4) - 12t^2(tan^2t - t^2) + 12(tan t - t)^2 + 8t(3tan t- 3t- t^3)t^6notag\
                      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0left(3cdotfractan t - tt^3cdotfractan^3t + ttan^2t + t^2tan t + t^3t^3right.notag\
                      &,,,,,,,, -12cdot fractan t - tt^3cdotfractan t + ttnotag\
                      &,,,,,,,, + 12cdotleft(fractan t - tt^3right)^2notag\
                      &,,,,,,,, + left. 8cdotfrac3tan t - 3t - t^3t^5right)notag\
                      &= -frac124 - frac263 + frac221lim_t to 0frac3tan t - 3t - t^3t^5notag\
                      &= -frac37504 + frac2105lim_t to 0frac3sec^2t - 3 - 3t^2t^4text (via LHR)notag\
                      &= -frac37504 + frac235lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3cdotfractan t + ttnotag\
                      &= -frac37504 + frac4105 = -frac892520notag
                      endalign
                      A similar but somewhat lengthy calculation shows that the limit $C = -17/630$ and hence desired limit $L = -1/30$.



                      In the above solution we make use of the following limits $$lim_x to 0fracsin x - xx^3 = -frac16,,lim_x to 0fractan x - xx^3 = frac13$$ which are easily evaluated via one application of L'Hospital's rule.



                      Needless to say that the above approach uses heavy algebraic manipulation and expresses the given problem as equivalent of 4 tough limit problems $(1), (2), (5), (6)$. Moreover for calculation of the desired limit $L$ we only need to calculate limits $C, D$. The limits $A, B$ are needed to guess the limit expression used for $C, D$. It is thus evident that after a certain point Taylor's series approach is far more favorable compared to the L'Hospital's rule. Moreover L'Hospital's rule is effective only when it is combined with a reasonable level of algebraic manipulation. One should always avoid repeated application of LHR in successive steps.



                      Also note that we did not use the approximation $$2x - sin x - fracx^560$$ for both $sin(tan x)$ and $tan(sin x)$ based on limits $(1)$ and $(2)$. Doing this would have made the difference $sin(tan x) - tan(sin x)$ as $0$. Instead the term $x^5$ was replaced very smartly with $sin^5x$ in one case and $tan^5x$ in another case because of the limit $E$ which is related to the difference $tan^5x - sin^5x$.



                      A final point which I wish to make is that this approach starts with the initial approximation $(2x - sin x)$ which is fairly accurate. It may be possible that there is a simpler approximation which makes the calculations much easier.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$












                      • $begingroup$
                        Good ideas. Congratulations.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Idris
                        Jun 20 '15 at 8:30










                      • $begingroup$
                        Thanks for this answer. I have been trying this for hours. Zero votes for this answer is a shame. +1.
                        $endgroup$
                        – A---B
                        Dec 4 '16 at 9:05






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @A---B: finally someone liked it.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Paramanand Singh
                        Dec 4 '16 at 14:03










                      • $begingroup$
                        Thanks to those who pride themselves on anonymous downvotes!!
                        $endgroup$
                        – Paramanand Singh
                        Nov 10 '17 at 16:03















                      0












                      $begingroup$

                      I already have a solution which uses some algebraic manipulation combined with Taylor series expansions, but I think it is worthwhile to find a neat solution based on L'Hospital's Rule.



                      My idea is to find a suitable approximation for both the expressions $tan(sin x)$ and $sin(tan x)$. I start with a simple approximation and improve on it further. After some guess work and manipulation with various limits I found that the expression $(2x - sin x)$ acts as a very good approximation for both the expressions. This is justified by the existence of following limits
                      beginalign
                      lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) - (2x - sin x)x^5 = Atag1\
                      lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) - (2x - sin x)x^5 = Btag2
                      endalign
                      The first limit is calculated as follows
                      beginalign
                      A &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5xcdotfracsin^5xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5xnotag\
                      &= lim_t to 0fractan t + t - 2arcsin tt^5notag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfracsec^2t + 1 - dfrac2sqrt1 - t^25t^4text (by LHR)notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 - 2t^4sqrt1 - t^2notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 - 2t^4notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(2 + tan^2t)^2(1 - t^2) - 4t^4(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 + 2notag\
                      &= frac120lim_t to 0frac(2 + tan^2t)^2(1 - t^2) - 4t^4notag\
                      &= frac120lim_t to 0frac4tan^2t + tan^4t - 4t^2 - 4t^2tan^2t - t^2tan^4tt^4notag\
                      &= frac120left(lim_t to 0frac4(tan^2t - t^2)t^4 + fractan^4tt^4 - 4fractan^2tt^2 - t^2fractan^4tt^4right)notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0fractan^2 - t^2t^4 - frac320notag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac15lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3cdotlim_t to 0fractan t + ttnotag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac25lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3notag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac25lim_t to 0fracsec^2t - 13t^2text (by LHR)notag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac215 = -frac160notag
                      endalign
                      For the second limit we proceed in similar manner
                      beginalign
                      B &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5xcdotfractan^5xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5xnotag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfracsin t + dfractsqrt1 + t^2 - 2tan^-1tt^5notag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfraccos t + dfrac1(1 + t^2)^3/2 - dfrac21 + t^25t^4text (via LHR)notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfraccos t(1 + t^2)^3/2 + 1 - 2sqrt1 + t^2t^4(1 + t^2)^3/2notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)cos t - 2sqrt1 + t^2 + 1t^4notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)cos t - 2^2(1 + t^2) - 1t^4[(1 + t^2)cos t - 2sqrt1 + t^2 - 1]notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)^2cos^2t + 4 - 4(1 + t^2)cos t(1 + t^2) - 1t^4notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^4 + 2t^2)(1 - sin^2t) + 4 - 4(1 + t^2)(1 - 2sin^2(t/2))(1 + t^2) - 1t^4notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - sin^2t - t^2t^4right.notag\
                      &,,,,,,,+ dfrac16sin^2(t/2) - 3sin^2tt^2notag\
                      &,,,,,,,+ (-1 - 3sin^2t + 8sin^2(t/2))notag\
                      &,,,,,,,+ left.dfrac(1 - sin^2t)t^6t^4right)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - sin^2t - t^2t^4 + 4 - 3 - 1 + 0right)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - 2sin^2t + sin^2t - t^2t^4right)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - 8sin^2(t/2)cos^2(t/2)t^4 + fracsin t - tt^3cdotfracsin t + ttright)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^4(t/2)t^4 - frac13right)notag\
                      &= -frac110left(frac12 - frac13right) = -frac160notag
                      endalign
                      From these limit $(1), (2)$ we easily get
                      beginalign
                      lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5x &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xx^5cdotfracx^5sin^5x = -frac160tag3\
                      lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5x &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xx^5cdotfracx^5tan^5x = -frac160tag4
                      endalign
                      From these equations we get the next level of approximations
                      beginalign
                      tan(sin x) &approx 2x - sin x - fracsin^5x60notag\
                      sin(tan x) &approx 2x - sin x - fractan^5x60notag
                      endalign
                      Our claim is that the following limits exist
                      beginalign
                      lim_x to 0dfracsin(tan x) - 2x + sin x + dfractan^5x60x^7 &= Ctag5\
                      lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60x^7 &= Dtag6
                      endalign
                      Let the desired limit in question be $L$ i.e. $$L = lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) - tan(sin x)x^7tag7$$ Subtracting $(6)$ from $(5)$ we get $$L + frac160lim_x to 0fractan^5x - sin^5xx^7 = C - Dtag8$$ Now it is easy to see that
                      beginalign
                      E &= lim_x to 0fractan^5x - sin^5xx^7notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fractan x - sin xx^3cdotfractan^4x + tan^3xsin x + tan^2xsin^2x + tan xsin^3x + sin^4xx^4notag\
                      &= 5lim_x to 0fracsin x(1 - cos x)x^3cos xnotag\
                      &= 5lim_x to 0fracsin xxcdotfrac1 - cos xx^2notag\
                      &= frac52notag
                      endalign
                      From equation $(8)$ we can see that $L = C - D - (1/24)$. It remains to evaluate $C$ and $D$ which can be done in a manner similar to the evaluation of $A$ and $B$. We will provide here the calculation for the simpler limit $D$ and let readers evaluate $C$ by themselves. We can thus proceed as follows
                      beginalign
                      D &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60x^7notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60sin^7xcdotfracsin^7xx^7notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60sin^7xnotag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfractan t - 2sin^-1t + t + dfract^560t^7notag\
                      &= frac160lim_t to 0dfrac60tan t - 120sin^-1t + 60t + t^5t^7notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60sec^2t - dfrac120sqrt1 - t^2 + 60 + 5t^4t^6text (via LHR)notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 - 120t^6sqrt1 - t^2notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 - 120t^6notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4^2(1 - t^2) - 120^2t^6[60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 + 120]notag\
                      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4^2(1 - t^2) - 120^2t^6notag\
                      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0left(frac60^2tan^4t + 1200t^4 + 120^2(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6right.notag\
                      &,,,,,,,,+frac600t^4tan^2t - 60^2t^2tan^4t - 1200t^6t^6notag\
                      &,,,,,,,,+left. frac- 600t^6tan^2t + 25t^8 - 25t^10t^6right)notag\
                      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0left(1200cdotfrac3tan^4t + t^4 + 12(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6 - 4200 + 0right)notag\
                      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0frac3tan^4t + t^4 + 12(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6notag\
                      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0frac3(tan^4 - t^4) - 12t^2(tan^2t - t^2) + 12(tan t - t)^2 + 8t(3tan t- 3t- t^3)t^6notag\
                      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0left(3cdotfractan t - tt^3cdotfractan^3t + ttan^2t + t^2tan t + t^3t^3right.notag\
                      &,,,,,,,, -12cdot fractan t - tt^3cdotfractan t + ttnotag\
                      &,,,,,,,, + 12cdotleft(fractan t - tt^3right)^2notag\
                      &,,,,,,,, + left. 8cdotfrac3tan t - 3t - t^3t^5right)notag\
                      &= -frac124 - frac263 + frac221lim_t to 0frac3tan t - 3t - t^3t^5notag\
                      &= -frac37504 + frac2105lim_t to 0frac3sec^2t - 3 - 3t^2t^4text (via LHR)notag\
                      &= -frac37504 + frac235lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3cdotfractan t + ttnotag\
                      &= -frac37504 + frac4105 = -frac892520notag
                      endalign
                      A similar but somewhat lengthy calculation shows that the limit $C = -17/630$ and hence desired limit $L = -1/30$.



                      In the above solution we make use of the following limits $$lim_x to 0fracsin x - xx^3 = -frac16,,lim_x to 0fractan x - xx^3 = frac13$$ which are easily evaluated via one application of L'Hospital's rule.



                      Needless to say that the above approach uses heavy algebraic manipulation and expresses the given problem as equivalent of 4 tough limit problems $(1), (2), (5), (6)$. Moreover for calculation of the desired limit $L$ we only need to calculate limits $C, D$. The limits $A, B$ are needed to guess the limit expression used for $C, D$. It is thus evident that after a certain point Taylor's series approach is far more favorable compared to the L'Hospital's rule. Moreover L'Hospital's rule is effective only when it is combined with a reasonable level of algebraic manipulation. One should always avoid repeated application of LHR in successive steps.



                      Also note that we did not use the approximation $$2x - sin x - fracx^560$$ for both $sin(tan x)$ and $tan(sin x)$ based on limits $(1)$ and $(2)$. Doing this would have made the difference $sin(tan x) - tan(sin x)$ as $0$. Instead the term $x^5$ was replaced very smartly with $sin^5x$ in one case and $tan^5x$ in another case because of the limit $E$ which is related to the difference $tan^5x - sin^5x$.



                      A final point which I wish to make is that this approach starts with the initial approximation $(2x - sin x)$ which is fairly accurate. It may be possible that there is a simpler approximation which makes the calculations much easier.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$












                      • $begingroup$
                        Good ideas. Congratulations.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Idris
                        Jun 20 '15 at 8:30










                      • $begingroup$
                        Thanks for this answer. I have been trying this for hours. Zero votes for this answer is a shame. +1.
                        $endgroup$
                        – A---B
                        Dec 4 '16 at 9:05






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @A---B: finally someone liked it.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Paramanand Singh
                        Dec 4 '16 at 14:03










                      • $begingroup$
                        Thanks to those who pride themselves on anonymous downvotes!!
                        $endgroup$
                        – Paramanand Singh
                        Nov 10 '17 at 16:03













                      0












                      0








                      0





                      $begingroup$

                      I already have a solution which uses some algebraic manipulation combined with Taylor series expansions, but I think it is worthwhile to find a neat solution based on L'Hospital's Rule.



                      My idea is to find a suitable approximation for both the expressions $tan(sin x)$ and $sin(tan x)$. I start with a simple approximation and improve on it further. After some guess work and manipulation with various limits I found that the expression $(2x - sin x)$ acts as a very good approximation for both the expressions. This is justified by the existence of following limits
                      beginalign
                      lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) - (2x - sin x)x^5 = Atag1\
                      lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) - (2x - sin x)x^5 = Btag2
                      endalign
                      The first limit is calculated as follows
                      beginalign
                      A &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5xcdotfracsin^5xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5xnotag\
                      &= lim_t to 0fractan t + t - 2arcsin tt^5notag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfracsec^2t + 1 - dfrac2sqrt1 - t^25t^4text (by LHR)notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 - 2t^4sqrt1 - t^2notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 - 2t^4notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(2 + tan^2t)^2(1 - t^2) - 4t^4(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 + 2notag\
                      &= frac120lim_t to 0frac(2 + tan^2t)^2(1 - t^2) - 4t^4notag\
                      &= frac120lim_t to 0frac4tan^2t + tan^4t - 4t^2 - 4t^2tan^2t - t^2tan^4tt^4notag\
                      &= frac120left(lim_t to 0frac4(tan^2t - t^2)t^4 + fractan^4tt^4 - 4fractan^2tt^2 - t^2fractan^4tt^4right)notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0fractan^2 - t^2t^4 - frac320notag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac15lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3cdotlim_t to 0fractan t + ttnotag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac25lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3notag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac25lim_t to 0fracsec^2t - 13t^2text (by LHR)notag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac215 = -frac160notag
                      endalign
                      For the second limit we proceed in similar manner
                      beginalign
                      B &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5xcdotfractan^5xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5xnotag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfracsin t + dfractsqrt1 + t^2 - 2tan^-1tt^5notag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfraccos t + dfrac1(1 + t^2)^3/2 - dfrac21 + t^25t^4text (via LHR)notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfraccos t(1 + t^2)^3/2 + 1 - 2sqrt1 + t^2t^4(1 + t^2)^3/2notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)cos t - 2sqrt1 + t^2 + 1t^4notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)cos t - 2^2(1 + t^2) - 1t^4[(1 + t^2)cos t - 2sqrt1 + t^2 - 1]notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)^2cos^2t + 4 - 4(1 + t^2)cos t(1 + t^2) - 1t^4notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^4 + 2t^2)(1 - sin^2t) + 4 - 4(1 + t^2)(1 - 2sin^2(t/2))(1 + t^2) - 1t^4notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - sin^2t - t^2t^4right.notag\
                      &,,,,,,,+ dfrac16sin^2(t/2) - 3sin^2tt^2notag\
                      &,,,,,,,+ (-1 - 3sin^2t + 8sin^2(t/2))notag\
                      &,,,,,,,+ left.dfrac(1 - sin^2t)t^6t^4right)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - sin^2t - t^2t^4 + 4 - 3 - 1 + 0right)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - 2sin^2t + sin^2t - t^2t^4right)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - 8sin^2(t/2)cos^2(t/2)t^4 + fracsin t - tt^3cdotfracsin t + ttright)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^4(t/2)t^4 - frac13right)notag\
                      &= -frac110left(frac12 - frac13right) = -frac160notag
                      endalign
                      From these limit $(1), (2)$ we easily get
                      beginalign
                      lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5x &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xx^5cdotfracx^5sin^5x = -frac160tag3\
                      lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5x &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xx^5cdotfracx^5tan^5x = -frac160tag4
                      endalign
                      From these equations we get the next level of approximations
                      beginalign
                      tan(sin x) &approx 2x - sin x - fracsin^5x60notag\
                      sin(tan x) &approx 2x - sin x - fractan^5x60notag
                      endalign
                      Our claim is that the following limits exist
                      beginalign
                      lim_x to 0dfracsin(tan x) - 2x + sin x + dfractan^5x60x^7 &= Ctag5\
                      lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60x^7 &= Dtag6
                      endalign
                      Let the desired limit in question be $L$ i.e. $$L = lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) - tan(sin x)x^7tag7$$ Subtracting $(6)$ from $(5)$ we get $$L + frac160lim_x to 0fractan^5x - sin^5xx^7 = C - Dtag8$$ Now it is easy to see that
                      beginalign
                      E &= lim_x to 0fractan^5x - sin^5xx^7notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fractan x - sin xx^3cdotfractan^4x + tan^3xsin x + tan^2xsin^2x + tan xsin^3x + sin^4xx^4notag\
                      &= 5lim_x to 0fracsin x(1 - cos x)x^3cos xnotag\
                      &= 5lim_x to 0fracsin xxcdotfrac1 - cos xx^2notag\
                      &= frac52notag
                      endalign
                      From equation $(8)$ we can see that $L = C - D - (1/24)$. It remains to evaluate $C$ and $D$ which can be done in a manner similar to the evaluation of $A$ and $B$. We will provide here the calculation for the simpler limit $D$ and let readers evaluate $C$ by themselves. We can thus proceed as follows
                      beginalign
                      D &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60x^7notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60sin^7xcdotfracsin^7xx^7notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60sin^7xnotag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfractan t - 2sin^-1t + t + dfract^560t^7notag\
                      &= frac160lim_t to 0dfrac60tan t - 120sin^-1t + 60t + t^5t^7notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60sec^2t - dfrac120sqrt1 - t^2 + 60 + 5t^4t^6text (via LHR)notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 - 120t^6sqrt1 - t^2notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 - 120t^6notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4^2(1 - t^2) - 120^2t^6[60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 + 120]notag\
                      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4^2(1 - t^2) - 120^2t^6notag\
                      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0left(frac60^2tan^4t + 1200t^4 + 120^2(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6right.notag\
                      &,,,,,,,,+frac600t^4tan^2t - 60^2t^2tan^4t - 1200t^6t^6notag\
                      &,,,,,,,,+left. frac- 600t^6tan^2t + 25t^8 - 25t^10t^6right)notag\
                      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0left(1200cdotfrac3tan^4t + t^4 + 12(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6 - 4200 + 0right)notag\
                      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0frac3tan^4t + t^4 + 12(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6notag\
                      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0frac3(tan^4 - t^4) - 12t^2(tan^2t - t^2) + 12(tan t - t)^2 + 8t(3tan t- 3t- t^3)t^6notag\
                      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0left(3cdotfractan t - tt^3cdotfractan^3t + ttan^2t + t^2tan t + t^3t^3right.notag\
                      &,,,,,,,, -12cdot fractan t - tt^3cdotfractan t + ttnotag\
                      &,,,,,,,, + 12cdotleft(fractan t - tt^3right)^2notag\
                      &,,,,,,,, + left. 8cdotfrac3tan t - 3t - t^3t^5right)notag\
                      &= -frac124 - frac263 + frac221lim_t to 0frac3tan t - 3t - t^3t^5notag\
                      &= -frac37504 + frac2105lim_t to 0frac3sec^2t - 3 - 3t^2t^4text (via LHR)notag\
                      &= -frac37504 + frac235lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3cdotfractan t + ttnotag\
                      &= -frac37504 + frac4105 = -frac892520notag
                      endalign
                      A similar but somewhat lengthy calculation shows that the limit $C = -17/630$ and hence desired limit $L = -1/30$.



                      In the above solution we make use of the following limits $$lim_x to 0fracsin x - xx^3 = -frac16,,lim_x to 0fractan x - xx^3 = frac13$$ which are easily evaluated via one application of L'Hospital's rule.



                      Needless to say that the above approach uses heavy algebraic manipulation and expresses the given problem as equivalent of 4 tough limit problems $(1), (2), (5), (6)$. Moreover for calculation of the desired limit $L$ we only need to calculate limits $C, D$. The limits $A, B$ are needed to guess the limit expression used for $C, D$. It is thus evident that after a certain point Taylor's series approach is far more favorable compared to the L'Hospital's rule. Moreover L'Hospital's rule is effective only when it is combined with a reasonable level of algebraic manipulation. One should always avoid repeated application of LHR in successive steps.



                      Also note that we did not use the approximation $$2x - sin x - fracx^560$$ for both $sin(tan x)$ and $tan(sin x)$ based on limits $(1)$ and $(2)$. Doing this would have made the difference $sin(tan x) - tan(sin x)$ as $0$. Instead the term $x^5$ was replaced very smartly with $sin^5x$ in one case and $tan^5x$ in another case because of the limit $E$ which is related to the difference $tan^5x - sin^5x$.



                      A final point which I wish to make is that this approach starts with the initial approximation $(2x - sin x)$ which is fairly accurate. It may be possible that there is a simpler approximation which makes the calculations much easier.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$



                      I already have a solution which uses some algebraic manipulation combined with Taylor series expansions, but I think it is worthwhile to find a neat solution based on L'Hospital's Rule.



                      My idea is to find a suitable approximation for both the expressions $tan(sin x)$ and $sin(tan x)$. I start with a simple approximation and improve on it further. After some guess work and manipulation with various limits I found that the expression $(2x - sin x)$ acts as a very good approximation for both the expressions. This is justified by the existence of following limits
                      beginalign
                      lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) - (2x - sin x)x^5 = Atag1\
                      lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) - (2x - sin x)x^5 = Btag2
                      endalign
                      The first limit is calculated as follows
                      beginalign
                      A &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5xcdotfracsin^5xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5xnotag\
                      &= lim_t to 0fractan t + t - 2arcsin tt^5notag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfracsec^2t + 1 - dfrac2sqrt1 - t^25t^4text (by LHR)notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 - 2t^4sqrt1 - t^2notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 - 2t^4notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0frac(2 + tan^2t)^2(1 - t^2) - 4t^4(1 + sec^2t)sqrt1 - t^2 + 2notag\
                      &= frac120lim_t to 0frac(2 + tan^2t)^2(1 - t^2) - 4t^4notag\
                      &= frac120lim_t to 0frac4tan^2t + tan^4t - 4t^2 - 4t^2tan^2t - t^2tan^4tt^4notag\
                      &= frac120left(lim_t to 0frac4(tan^2t - t^2)t^4 + fractan^4tt^4 - 4fractan^2tt^2 - t^2fractan^4tt^4right)notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0fractan^2 - t^2t^4 - frac320notag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac15lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3cdotlim_t to 0fractan t + ttnotag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac25lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3notag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac25lim_t to 0fracsec^2t - 13t^2text (by LHR)notag\
                      &= -frac320 + frac215 = -frac160notag
                      endalign
                      For the second limit we proceed in similar manner
                      beginalign
                      B &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5xcdotfractan^5xx^5notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5xnotag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfracsin t + dfractsqrt1 + t^2 - 2tan^-1tt^5notag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfraccos t + dfrac1(1 + t^2)^3/2 - dfrac21 + t^25t^4text (via LHR)notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfraccos t(1 + t^2)^3/2 + 1 - 2sqrt1 + t^2t^4(1 + t^2)^3/2notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)cos t - 2sqrt1 + t^2 + 1t^4notag\
                      &= frac15lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)cos t - 2^2(1 + t^2) - 1t^4[(1 + t^2)cos t - 2sqrt1 + t^2 - 1]notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^2)^2cos^2t + 4 - 4(1 + t^2)cos t(1 + t^2) - 1t^4notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0dfrac(1 + t^4 + 2t^2)(1 - sin^2t) + 4 - 4(1 + t^2)(1 - 2sin^2(t/2))(1 + t^2) - 1t^4notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - sin^2t - t^2t^4right.notag\
                      &,,,,,,,+ dfrac16sin^2(t/2) - 3sin^2tt^2notag\
                      &,,,,,,,+ (-1 - 3sin^2t + 8sin^2(t/2))notag\
                      &,,,,,,,+ left.dfrac(1 - sin^2t)t^6t^4right)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - sin^2t - t^2t^4 + 4 - 3 - 1 + 0right)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - 2sin^2t + sin^2t - t^2t^4right)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^2(t/2) - 8sin^2(t/2)cos^2(t/2)t^4 + fracsin t - tt^3cdotfracsin t + ttright)notag\
                      &= -frac110lim_t to 0left(frac8sin^4(t/2)t^4 - frac13right)notag\
                      &= -frac110left(frac12 - frac13right) = -frac160notag
                      endalign
                      From these limit $(1), (2)$ we easily get
                      beginalign
                      lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xsin^5x &= lim_x to 0fractan(sin x) + sin x - 2xx^5cdotfracx^5sin^5x = -frac160tag3\
                      lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xtan^5x &= lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) + sin x - 2xx^5cdotfracx^5tan^5x = -frac160tag4
                      endalign
                      From these equations we get the next level of approximations
                      beginalign
                      tan(sin x) &approx 2x - sin x - fracsin^5x60notag\
                      sin(tan x) &approx 2x - sin x - fractan^5x60notag
                      endalign
                      Our claim is that the following limits exist
                      beginalign
                      lim_x to 0dfracsin(tan x) - 2x + sin x + dfractan^5x60x^7 &= Ctag5\
                      lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60x^7 &= Dtag6
                      endalign
                      Let the desired limit in question be $L$ i.e. $$L = lim_x to 0fracsin(tan x) - tan(sin x)x^7tag7$$ Subtracting $(6)$ from $(5)$ we get $$L + frac160lim_x to 0fractan^5x - sin^5xx^7 = C - Dtag8$$ Now it is easy to see that
                      beginalign
                      E &= lim_x to 0fractan^5x - sin^5xx^7notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0fractan x - sin xx^3cdotfractan^4x + tan^3xsin x + tan^2xsin^2x + tan xsin^3x + sin^4xx^4notag\
                      &= 5lim_x to 0fracsin x(1 - cos x)x^3cos xnotag\
                      &= 5lim_x to 0fracsin xxcdotfrac1 - cos xx^2notag\
                      &= frac52notag
                      endalign
                      From equation $(8)$ we can see that $L = C - D - (1/24)$. It remains to evaluate $C$ and $D$ which can be done in a manner similar to the evaluation of $A$ and $B$. We will provide here the calculation for the simpler limit $D$ and let readers evaluate $C$ by themselves. We can thus proceed as follows
                      beginalign
                      D &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60x^7notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60sin^7xcdotfracsin^7xx^7notag\
                      &= lim_x to 0dfractan(sin x) - 2x + sin x + dfracsin^5x60sin^7xnotag\
                      &= lim_t to 0dfractan t - 2sin^-1t + t + dfract^560t^7notag\
                      &= frac160lim_t to 0dfrac60tan t - 120sin^-1t + 60t + t^5t^7notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60sec^2t - dfrac120sqrt1 - t^2 + 60 + 5t^4t^6text (via LHR)notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 - 120t^6sqrt1 - t^2notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 - 120t^6notag\
                      &= frac1420lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4^2(1 - t^2) - 120^2t^6[60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4sqrt1 - t^2 + 120]notag\
                      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0dfrac60(2 + tan^2t) + 5t^4^2(1 - t^2) - 120^2t^6notag\
                      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0left(frac60^2tan^4t + 1200t^4 + 120^2(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6right.notag\
                      &,,,,,,,,+frac600t^4tan^2t - 60^2t^2tan^4t - 1200t^6t^6notag\
                      &,,,,,,,,+left. frac- 600t^6tan^2t + 25t^8 - 25t^10t^6right)notag\
                      &= frac1420cdotfrac1240lim_t to 0left(1200cdotfrac3tan^4t + t^4 + 12(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6 - 4200 + 0right)notag\
                      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0frac3tan^4t + t^4 + 12(tan^2t - t^2 - t^2tan^2t)t^6notag\
                      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0frac3(tan^4 - t^4) - 12t^2(tan^2t - t^2) + 12(tan t - t)^2 + 8t(3tan t- 3t- t^3)t^6notag\
                      &= -frac124 + frac184lim_t to 0left(3cdotfractan t - tt^3cdotfractan^3t + ttan^2t + t^2tan t + t^3t^3right.notag\
                      &,,,,,,,, -12cdot fractan t - tt^3cdotfractan t + ttnotag\
                      &,,,,,,,, + 12cdotleft(fractan t - tt^3right)^2notag\
                      &,,,,,,,, + left. 8cdotfrac3tan t - 3t - t^3t^5right)notag\
                      &= -frac124 - frac263 + frac221lim_t to 0frac3tan t - 3t - t^3t^5notag\
                      &= -frac37504 + frac2105lim_t to 0frac3sec^2t - 3 - 3t^2t^4text (via LHR)notag\
                      &= -frac37504 + frac235lim_t to 0fractan t - tt^3cdotfractan t + ttnotag\
                      &= -frac37504 + frac4105 = -frac892520notag
                      endalign
                      A similar but somewhat lengthy calculation shows that the limit $C = -17/630$ and hence desired limit $L = -1/30$.



                      In the above solution we make use of the following limits $$lim_x to 0fracsin x - xx^3 = -frac16,,lim_x to 0fractan x - xx^3 = frac13$$ which are easily evaluated via one application of L'Hospital's rule.



                      Needless to say that the above approach uses heavy algebraic manipulation and expresses the given problem as equivalent of 4 tough limit problems $(1), (2), (5), (6)$. Moreover for calculation of the desired limit $L$ we only need to calculate limits $C, D$. The limits $A, B$ are needed to guess the limit expression used for $C, D$. It is thus evident that after a certain point Taylor's series approach is far more favorable compared to the L'Hospital's rule. Moreover L'Hospital's rule is effective only when it is combined with a reasonable level of algebraic manipulation. One should always avoid repeated application of LHR in successive steps.



                      Also note that we did not use the approximation $$2x - sin x - fracx^560$$ for both $sin(tan x)$ and $tan(sin x)$ based on limits $(1)$ and $(2)$. Doing this would have made the difference $sin(tan x) - tan(sin x)$ as $0$. Instead the term $x^5$ was replaced very smartly with $sin^5x$ in one case and $tan^5x$ in another case because of the limit $E$ which is related to the difference $tan^5x - sin^5x$.



                      A final point which I wish to make is that this approach starts with the initial approximation $(2x - sin x)$ which is fairly accurate. It may be possible that there is a simpler approximation which makes the calculations much easier.







                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:21









                      Community

                      1




                      1










                      answered Jun 20 '15 at 6:57









                      Paramanand SinghParamanand Singh

                      51.3k558170




                      51.3k558170











                      • $begingroup$
                        Good ideas. Congratulations.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Idris
                        Jun 20 '15 at 8:30










                      • $begingroup$
                        Thanks for this answer. I have been trying this for hours. Zero votes for this answer is a shame. +1.
                        $endgroup$
                        – A---B
                        Dec 4 '16 at 9:05






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @A---B: finally someone liked it.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Paramanand Singh
                        Dec 4 '16 at 14:03










                      • $begingroup$
                        Thanks to those who pride themselves on anonymous downvotes!!
                        $endgroup$
                        – Paramanand Singh
                        Nov 10 '17 at 16:03
















                      • $begingroup$
                        Good ideas. Congratulations.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Idris
                        Jun 20 '15 at 8:30










                      • $begingroup$
                        Thanks for this answer. I have been trying this for hours. Zero votes for this answer is a shame. +1.
                        $endgroup$
                        – A---B
                        Dec 4 '16 at 9:05






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @A---B: finally someone liked it.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Paramanand Singh
                        Dec 4 '16 at 14:03










                      • $begingroup$
                        Thanks to those who pride themselves on anonymous downvotes!!
                        $endgroup$
                        – Paramanand Singh
                        Nov 10 '17 at 16:03















                      $begingroup$
                      Good ideas. Congratulations.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Idris
                      Jun 20 '15 at 8:30




                      $begingroup$
                      Good ideas. Congratulations.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Idris
                      Jun 20 '15 at 8:30












                      $begingroup$
                      Thanks for this answer. I have been trying this for hours. Zero votes for this answer is a shame. +1.
                      $endgroup$
                      – A---B
                      Dec 4 '16 at 9:05




                      $begingroup$
                      Thanks for this answer. I have been trying this for hours. Zero votes for this answer is a shame. +1.
                      $endgroup$
                      – A---B
                      Dec 4 '16 at 9:05




                      1




                      1




                      $begingroup$
                      @A---B: finally someone liked it.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Paramanand Singh
                      Dec 4 '16 at 14:03




                      $begingroup$
                      @A---B: finally someone liked it.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Paramanand Singh
                      Dec 4 '16 at 14:03












                      $begingroup$
                      Thanks to those who pride themselves on anonymous downvotes!!
                      $endgroup$
                      – Paramanand Singh
                      Nov 10 '17 at 16:03




                      $begingroup$
                      Thanks to those who pride themselves on anonymous downvotes!!
                      $endgroup$
                      – Paramanand Singh
                      Nov 10 '17 at 16:03

















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