Poincare dual simplicial structure of complexes homotopy equivalent to manifolds Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)References Request (Poincare Duality via Unimodular pairing, de Rham isomorphism)Invariance of combinatorial/geometric euler characteristic(References) Relationship between skeletons of simplicial complexes and manifolds?Poincare duality in group (co)homologyClosed manifolds with isomorphic cohomology rings, but different cohomology modules over the Steenrod algebraBeginner question: Poincare Duality for Simplicial ComplexesHomotopy type of simplicial complexesA surface of genus g is not homotopy equivalent to a wedge sum of CW-complexesGeneralising dual triangulation of manifoldsDo contractible homology manifolds have one end?

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Poincare dual simplicial structure of complexes homotopy equivalent to manifolds



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)References Request (Poincare Duality via Unimodular pairing, de Rham isomorphism)Invariance of combinatorial/geometric euler characteristic(References) Relationship between skeletons of simplicial complexes and manifolds?Poincare duality in group (co)homologyClosed manifolds with isomorphic cohomology rings, but different cohomology modules over the Steenrod algebraBeginner question: Poincare Duality for Simplicial ComplexesHomotopy type of simplicial complexesA surface of genus g is not homotopy equivalent to a wedge sum of CW-complexesGeneralising dual triangulation of manifoldsDo contractible homology manifolds have one end?










1












$begingroup$


Given a closed $n$-manifold $M$, Poincare duality equips us with an isomorphism: $$H_k(M)cong H^n-k(M)$$
Here I'm speaking of singular homology with coeffecient in $mathbbZ_2$.



Suppose now $M$ has a triangulation $K$. Then clearly, we have a similar Poincare isomorphism as above for $K$ as well. In fact, even more can be said: there exists a polyhedral dual structure $K^vee$ of $K$ which gives an isomorphism already at the level of (co)chain complexes: $$C_k(K^vee)cong C^n-k(K)$$
(in order to be safe let's further assume we are considering smooth manifolds so stuff as https://mathoverflow.net/questions/194297/dual-cell-structures-on-manifolds do not occur)



My question is:




Is there an isomorphism of the form $C_k(K^vee)cong C^n-k(K)$
even when $K$ is not necessarily a triangulation of $M$, but instead
only homotopy equivalent $M$




I'll remark, that I'm in fact interested in Poincare-Lefschetz duality (i.e for manifolds with boundary) but thought it is better to start from here. Furthermore, I'm in particular interested in the case where $K$ is the nerve of some "good cover" of $M$ (and thus homotopy equivalent from the nerve lemma)










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$
















    1












    $begingroup$


    Given a closed $n$-manifold $M$, Poincare duality equips us with an isomorphism: $$H_k(M)cong H^n-k(M)$$
    Here I'm speaking of singular homology with coeffecient in $mathbbZ_2$.



    Suppose now $M$ has a triangulation $K$. Then clearly, we have a similar Poincare isomorphism as above for $K$ as well. In fact, even more can be said: there exists a polyhedral dual structure $K^vee$ of $K$ which gives an isomorphism already at the level of (co)chain complexes: $$C_k(K^vee)cong C^n-k(K)$$
    (in order to be safe let's further assume we are considering smooth manifolds so stuff as https://mathoverflow.net/questions/194297/dual-cell-structures-on-manifolds do not occur)



    My question is:




    Is there an isomorphism of the form $C_k(K^vee)cong C^n-k(K)$
    even when $K$ is not necessarily a triangulation of $M$, but instead
    only homotopy equivalent $M$




    I'll remark, that I'm in fact interested in Poincare-Lefschetz duality (i.e for manifolds with boundary) but thought it is better to start from here. Furthermore, I'm in particular interested in the case where $K$ is the nerve of some "good cover" of $M$ (and thus homotopy equivalent from the nerve lemma)










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      1












      1








      1





      $begingroup$


      Given a closed $n$-manifold $M$, Poincare duality equips us with an isomorphism: $$H_k(M)cong H^n-k(M)$$
      Here I'm speaking of singular homology with coeffecient in $mathbbZ_2$.



      Suppose now $M$ has a triangulation $K$. Then clearly, we have a similar Poincare isomorphism as above for $K$ as well. In fact, even more can be said: there exists a polyhedral dual structure $K^vee$ of $K$ which gives an isomorphism already at the level of (co)chain complexes: $$C_k(K^vee)cong C^n-k(K)$$
      (in order to be safe let's further assume we are considering smooth manifolds so stuff as https://mathoverflow.net/questions/194297/dual-cell-structures-on-manifolds do not occur)



      My question is:




      Is there an isomorphism of the form $C_k(K^vee)cong C^n-k(K)$
      even when $K$ is not necessarily a triangulation of $M$, but instead
      only homotopy equivalent $M$




      I'll remark, that I'm in fact interested in Poincare-Lefschetz duality (i.e for manifolds with boundary) but thought it is better to start from here. Furthermore, I'm in particular interested in the case where $K$ is the nerve of some "good cover" of $M$ (and thus homotopy equivalent from the nerve lemma)










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Given a closed $n$-manifold $M$, Poincare duality equips us with an isomorphism: $$H_k(M)cong H^n-k(M)$$
      Here I'm speaking of singular homology with coeffecient in $mathbbZ_2$.



      Suppose now $M$ has a triangulation $K$. Then clearly, we have a similar Poincare isomorphism as above for $K$ as well. In fact, even more can be said: there exists a polyhedral dual structure $K^vee$ of $K$ which gives an isomorphism already at the level of (co)chain complexes: $$C_k(K^vee)cong C^n-k(K)$$
      (in order to be safe let's further assume we are considering smooth manifolds so stuff as https://mathoverflow.net/questions/194297/dual-cell-structures-on-manifolds do not occur)



      My question is:




      Is there an isomorphism of the form $C_k(K^vee)cong C^n-k(K)$
      even when $K$ is not necessarily a triangulation of $M$, but instead
      only homotopy equivalent $M$




      I'll remark, that I'm in fact interested in Poincare-Lefschetz duality (i.e for manifolds with boundary) but thought it is better to start from here. Furthermore, I'm in particular interested in the case where $K$ is the nerve of some "good cover" of $M$ (and thus homotopy equivalent from the nerve lemma)







      algebraic-topology homology-cohomology triangulation simplicial-complex poincare-duality






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited Apr 1 at 14:54







      Itamar Vigi

















      asked Apr 1 at 13:42









      Itamar VigiItamar Vigi

      326110




      326110




















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          0












          $begingroup$

          Your question is not very precise, but I would say the answer is no. Consider $M$ to be the $0$-manifold given by the singleton. Take the simplicial complex given by the simplest triangulation of $[0,1]$ (two vertices, one edge), which satisfies $M simeq [0,1]$. Then the cellular complex of $K$ is $C_0(K) = mathbbF_2^2$ and $C_1(K) = mathbbF_2$. There is no triangulation $K^vee$ such that $C^0(K^vee) = mathbbF_2^2$ and $C^-1(K^vee) = mathbbF_2$.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            I agree that my question is not very precise.. I wasn't aware of how problematic it is to construct a dual polyhedral structure to some abstract simplicial complex. Even for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary there are subtleties to deal with. I assume that's your point there right? But then I must ask, in your answer what do you mean by $K^vee$? do you mean some standard construction of a dual complex for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary, one which gives a Lefschetz type duality?
            $endgroup$
            – Itamar Vigi
            Apr 2 at 13:49







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @ItamarVigi For a manifold with boundary, in general you would want an isomorphism $C_*(K) cong C^n-*(K^vee, partial K^vee)$ (this is Poincaré–Lefschetz duality). Here in my answer, $K^vee$ is just a notation: what I am saying is that there is no cell complex $X$ such that $C^-1(X) = mathbbF_2$. There is never anything in negative degrees.
            $endgroup$
            – Najib Idrissi
            Apr 2 at 13:51











          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for pointing out the absurdity of what I'm looking for.
            $endgroup$
            – Itamar Vigi
            Apr 4 at 8:12











          Your Answer








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          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

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          active

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          active

          oldest

          votes









          0












          $begingroup$

          Your question is not very precise, but I would say the answer is no. Consider $M$ to be the $0$-manifold given by the singleton. Take the simplicial complex given by the simplest triangulation of $[0,1]$ (two vertices, one edge), which satisfies $M simeq [0,1]$. Then the cellular complex of $K$ is $C_0(K) = mathbbF_2^2$ and $C_1(K) = mathbbF_2$. There is no triangulation $K^vee$ such that $C^0(K^vee) = mathbbF_2^2$ and $C^-1(K^vee) = mathbbF_2$.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            I agree that my question is not very precise.. I wasn't aware of how problematic it is to construct a dual polyhedral structure to some abstract simplicial complex. Even for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary there are subtleties to deal with. I assume that's your point there right? But then I must ask, in your answer what do you mean by $K^vee$? do you mean some standard construction of a dual complex for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary, one which gives a Lefschetz type duality?
            $endgroup$
            – Itamar Vigi
            Apr 2 at 13:49







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @ItamarVigi For a manifold with boundary, in general you would want an isomorphism $C_*(K) cong C^n-*(K^vee, partial K^vee)$ (this is Poincaré–Lefschetz duality). Here in my answer, $K^vee$ is just a notation: what I am saying is that there is no cell complex $X$ such that $C^-1(X) = mathbbF_2$. There is never anything in negative degrees.
            $endgroup$
            – Najib Idrissi
            Apr 2 at 13:51











          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for pointing out the absurdity of what I'm looking for.
            $endgroup$
            – Itamar Vigi
            Apr 4 at 8:12















          0












          $begingroup$

          Your question is not very precise, but I would say the answer is no. Consider $M$ to be the $0$-manifold given by the singleton. Take the simplicial complex given by the simplest triangulation of $[0,1]$ (two vertices, one edge), which satisfies $M simeq [0,1]$. Then the cellular complex of $K$ is $C_0(K) = mathbbF_2^2$ and $C_1(K) = mathbbF_2$. There is no triangulation $K^vee$ such that $C^0(K^vee) = mathbbF_2^2$ and $C^-1(K^vee) = mathbbF_2$.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            I agree that my question is not very precise.. I wasn't aware of how problematic it is to construct a dual polyhedral structure to some abstract simplicial complex. Even for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary there are subtleties to deal with. I assume that's your point there right? But then I must ask, in your answer what do you mean by $K^vee$? do you mean some standard construction of a dual complex for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary, one which gives a Lefschetz type duality?
            $endgroup$
            – Itamar Vigi
            Apr 2 at 13:49







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @ItamarVigi For a manifold with boundary, in general you would want an isomorphism $C_*(K) cong C^n-*(K^vee, partial K^vee)$ (this is Poincaré–Lefschetz duality). Here in my answer, $K^vee$ is just a notation: what I am saying is that there is no cell complex $X$ such that $C^-1(X) = mathbbF_2$. There is never anything in negative degrees.
            $endgroup$
            – Najib Idrissi
            Apr 2 at 13:51











          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for pointing out the absurdity of what I'm looking for.
            $endgroup$
            – Itamar Vigi
            Apr 4 at 8:12













          0












          0








          0





          $begingroup$

          Your question is not very precise, but I would say the answer is no. Consider $M$ to be the $0$-manifold given by the singleton. Take the simplicial complex given by the simplest triangulation of $[0,1]$ (two vertices, one edge), which satisfies $M simeq [0,1]$. Then the cellular complex of $K$ is $C_0(K) = mathbbF_2^2$ and $C_1(K) = mathbbF_2$. There is no triangulation $K^vee$ such that $C^0(K^vee) = mathbbF_2^2$ and $C^-1(K^vee) = mathbbF_2$.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          Your question is not very precise, but I would say the answer is no. Consider $M$ to be the $0$-manifold given by the singleton. Take the simplicial complex given by the simplest triangulation of $[0,1]$ (two vertices, one edge), which satisfies $M simeq [0,1]$. Then the cellular complex of $K$ is $C_0(K) = mathbbF_2^2$ and $C_1(K) = mathbbF_2$. There is no triangulation $K^vee$ such that $C^0(K^vee) = mathbbF_2^2$ and $C^-1(K^vee) = mathbbF_2$.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Apr 2 at 12:52









          Najib IdrissiNajib Idrissi

          42k473143




          42k473143











          • $begingroup$
            I agree that my question is not very precise.. I wasn't aware of how problematic it is to construct a dual polyhedral structure to some abstract simplicial complex. Even for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary there are subtleties to deal with. I assume that's your point there right? But then I must ask, in your answer what do you mean by $K^vee$? do you mean some standard construction of a dual complex for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary, one which gives a Lefschetz type duality?
            $endgroup$
            – Itamar Vigi
            Apr 2 at 13:49







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @ItamarVigi For a manifold with boundary, in general you would want an isomorphism $C_*(K) cong C^n-*(K^vee, partial K^vee)$ (this is Poincaré–Lefschetz duality). Here in my answer, $K^vee$ is just a notation: what I am saying is that there is no cell complex $X$ such that $C^-1(X) = mathbbF_2$. There is never anything in negative degrees.
            $endgroup$
            – Najib Idrissi
            Apr 2 at 13:51











          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for pointing out the absurdity of what I'm looking for.
            $endgroup$
            – Itamar Vigi
            Apr 4 at 8:12
















          • $begingroup$
            I agree that my question is not very precise.. I wasn't aware of how problematic it is to construct a dual polyhedral structure to some abstract simplicial complex. Even for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary there are subtleties to deal with. I assume that's your point there right? But then I must ask, in your answer what do you mean by $K^vee$? do you mean some standard construction of a dual complex for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary, one which gives a Lefschetz type duality?
            $endgroup$
            – Itamar Vigi
            Apr 2 at 13:49







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @ItamarVigi For a manifold with boundary, in general you would want an isomorphism $C_*(K) cong C^n-*(K^vee, partial K^vee)$ (this is Poincaré–Lefschetz duality). Here in my answer, $K^vee$ is just a notation: what I am saying is that there is no cell complex $X$ such that $C^-1(X) = mathbbF_2$. There is never anything in negative degrees.
            $endgroup$
            – Najib Idrissi
            Apr 2 at 13:51











          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for pointing out the absurdity of what I'm looking for.
            $endgroup$
            – Itamar Vigi
            Apr 4 at 8:12















          $begingroup$
          I agree that my question is not very precise.. I wasn't aware of how problematic it is to construct a dual polyhedral structure to some abstract simplicial complex. Even for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary there are subtleties to deal with. I assume that's your point there right? But then I must ask, in your answer what do you mean by $K^vee$? do you mean some standard construction of a dual complex for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary, one which gives a Lefschetz type duality?
          $endgroup$
          – Itamar Vigi
          Apr 2 at 13:49





          $begingroup$
          I agree that my question is not very precise.. I wasn't aware of how problematic it is to construct a dual polyhedral structure to some abstract simplicial complex. Even for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary there are subtleties to deal with. I assume that's your point there right? But then I must ask, in your answer what do you mean by $K^vee$? do you mean some standard construction of a dual complex for a triangulation of a manifold with boundary, one which gives a Lefschetz type duality?
          $endgroup$
          – Itamar Vigi
          Apr 2 at 13:49





          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          @ItamarVigi For a manifold with boundary, in general you would want an isomorphism $C_*(K) cong C^n-*(K^vee, partial K^vee)$ (this is Poincaré–Lefschetz duality). Here in my answer, $K^vee$ is just a notation: what I am saying is that there is no cell complex $X$ such that $C^-1(X) = mathbbF_2$. There is never anything in negative degrees.
          $endgroup$
          – Najib Idrissi
          Apr 2 at 13:51





          $begingroup$
          @ItamarVigi For a manifold with boundary, in general you would want an isomorphism $C_*(K) cong C^n-*(K^vee, partial K^vee)$ (this is Poincaré–Lefschetz duality). Here in my answer, $K^vee$ is just a notation: what I am saying is that there is no cell complex $X$ such that $C^-1(X) = mathbbF_2$. There is never anything in negative degrees.
          $endgroup$
          – Najib Idrissi
          Apr 2 at 13:51













          $begingroup$
          Thank you for pointing out the absurdity of what I'm looking for.
          $endgroup$
          – Itamar Vigi
          Apr 4 at 8:12




          $begingroup$
          Thank you for pointing out the absurdity of what I'm looking for.
          $endgroup$
          – Itamar Vigi
          Apr 4 at 8:12

















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Population.«El nacionalista Nikolic gana las elecciones presidenciales en Serbia»El europeísta Borís Tadic gana la segunda vuelta de las presidenciales serbias.Aleksandar Vucic, de ultranacionalista serbio a fervoroso europeístaKostunica condena la declaración del "falso estado" de Kosovo.Comienza el debate sobre la independencia de Kosovo en el TIJ.La Corte Internacional de Justicia dice que Kosovo no violó el derecho internacional al declarar su independenciaKosovo: Enviado de la ONU advierte tensiones y fragilidad.«Bruselas recomienda negociar la adhesión de Serbia tras el acuerdo sobre Kosovo»Monografía de Serbia.Bez smanjivanja Vojske Srbije.Military statistics Serbia and Montenegro.Šutanovac: Vojni budžet za 2009. godinu 70 milijardi dinara.Serbia-Montenegro shortens obligatory military service to six months.No hay justicia para las víctimas de los bombardeos de la OTAN.Zapatero reitera la negativa de España a reconocer la independencia de Kosovo.Anniversary of the signing of the Stabilisation and Association Agreement.Detenido en Serbia Radovan Karadzic, el criminal de guerra más buscado de Europa."Serbia presentará su candidatura de acceso a la UE antes de fin de año".Serbia solicita la adhesión a la UE.Detenido el exgeneral serbobosnio Ratko Mladic, principal acusado del genocidio en los Balcanes«Lista de todos los Estados Miembros de las Naciones Unidas que son parte o signatarios en los diversos instrumentos de derechos humanos de las Naciones Unidas»versión pdfProtocolo Facultativo de la Convención sobre la Eliminación de todas las Formas de Discriminación contra la MujerConvención contra la tortura y otros tratos o penas crueles, inhumanos o degradantesversión pdfProtocolo Facultativo de la Convención sobre los Derechos de las Personas con DiscapacidadEl ACNUR recibe con beneplácito el envío de tropas de la OTAN a Kosovo y se prepara ante una posible llegada de refugiados a Serbia.Kosovo.- El jefe de la Minuk denuncia que los serbios boicotearon las legislativas por 'presiones'.Bosnia and Herzegovina. Population.Datos básicos de Montenegro, historia y evolución política.Serbia y Montenegro. Indicador: Tasa global de fecundidad (por 1000 habitantes).Serbia y Montenegro. Indicador: Tasa bruta de mortalidad (por 1000 habitantes).Population.Falleció el patriarca de la Iglesia Ortodoxa serbia.Atacan en Kosovo autobuses con peregrinos tras la investidura del patriarca serbio IrinejSerbian in Hungary.Tasas de cambio."Kosovo es de todos sus ciudadanos".Report for Serbia.Country groups by income.GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT (GDP) OF THE REPUBLIC OF SERBIA 1997–2007.Economic Trends in the Republic of Serbia 2006.National Accounts Statitics.Саопштења за јавност.GDP per inhabitant varied by one to six across the EU27 Member States.Un pacto de estabilidad para Serbia.Unemployment rate rises in Serbia.Serbia, Belarus agree free trade to woo investors.Serbia, Turkey call investors to Serbia.Success Stories.U.S. Private Investment in Serbia and Montenegro.Positive trend.Banks in Serbia.La Cámara de Comercio acompaña a empresas madrileñas a Serbia y Croacia.Serbia Industries.Energy and mining.Agriculture.Late crops, fruit and grapes output, 2008.Rebranding Serbia: A Hobby Shortly to Become a Full-Time Job.Final data on livestock statistics, 2008.Serbian cell-phone users.U Srbiji sve više računara.Телекомуникације.U Srbiji 27 odsto gradjana koristi Internet.Serbia and Montenegro.Тренд гледаности програма РТС-а у 2008. и 2009.години.Serbian railways.General Terms.El mercado del transporte aéreo en Serbia.Statistics.Vehículos de motor registrados.Planes ambiciosos para el transporte fluvial.Turismo.Turistički promet u Republici Srbiji u periodu januar-novembar 2007. godine.Your Guide to Culture.Novi Sad - city of culture.Nis - european crossroads.Serbia. Properties inscribed on the World Heritage List .Stari Ras and Sopoćani.Studenica Monastery.Medieval Monuments in Kosovo.Gamzigrad-Romuliana, Palace of Galerius.Skiing and snowboarding in Kopaonik.Tara.New7Wonders of Nature Finalists.Pilgrimage of Saint Sava.Exit Festival: Best european festival.Banje u Srbiji.«The Encyclopedia of world history»Culture.Centenario del arte serbio.«Djordje Andrejevic Kun: el único pintor de los brigadistas yugoslavos de la guerra civil española»About the museum.The collections.Miroslav Gospel – Manuscript from 1180.Historicity in the Serbo-Croatian Heroic Epic.Culture and Sport.Conversación con el rector del Seminario San Sava.'Reina Margot' funde drama, historia y gesto con música de Goran Bregovic.Serbia gana Eurovisión y España decepciona de nuevo con un vigésimo puesto.Home.Story.Emir Kusturica.Tercer oro para Paskaljevic.Nikola Tesla Year.Home.Tesla, un genio tomado por loco.Aniversario de la muerte de Nikola Tesla.El Museo Nikola Tesla en Belgrado.El inventor del mundo actual.República de Serbia.University of Belgrade official statistics.University of Novi Sad.University of Kragujevac.University of Nis.Comida. Cocina serbia.Cooking.Montenegro se convertirá en el miembro 204 del movimiento olímpico.España, campeona de Europa de baloncesto.El Partizan de Belgrado se corona campeón por octava vez consecutiva.Serbia se clasifica para el Mundial de 2010 de Sudáfrica.Serbia Name Squad For Northern Ireland And South Korea Tests.Fútbol.- El Partizán de Belgrado se proclama campeón de la Liga serbia.Clasificacion final Mundial de balonmano Croacia 2009.Serbia vence a España y se consagra campeón mundial de waterpolo.Novak Djokovic no convence pero gana en Australia.Gana Ana Ivanovic el Roland Garros.Serena Williams gana el US Open por tercera vez.Biography.Bradt Travel Guide SerbiaThe Encyclopedia of World War IGobierno de SerbiaPortal del Gobierno de SerbiaPresidencia de SerbiaAsamblea Nacional SerbiaMinisterio de Asuntos exteriores de SerbiaBanco Nacional de SerbiaAgencia Serbia para la Promoción de la Inversión y la ExportaciónOficina de Estadísticas de SerbiaCIA. Factbook 2008Organización nacional de turismo de SerbiaDiscover SerbiaConoce SerbiaNoticias de SerbiaSerbiaWorldCat1512028760000 0000 9526 67094054598-2n8519591900570825ge1309191004530741010url17413117006669D055771Serbia