Are axioms truly the foundation of mathematics? The Next CEO of Stack OverflowDoes mathematics require axioms?Mathematics felt by Srinivasa RamanujanThree-valued logic as foundationIs the anti-foundation axiom considered constructive?Terry Tao's computational perspective on set theoryAre there ways to build mathematics without axiomatizing?How are primitive mathematical objects chosen?Infinitely many axioms of ZFC vs. finitely many axioms of NBGMinimal requirements for standard model of set theory leading to inconsistency?Small and large categories when category theory is taken as the foundation of mathematics

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Are axioms truly the foundation of mathematics?



The Next CEO of Stack OverflowDoes mathematics require axioms?Mathematics felt by Srinivasa RamanujanThree-valued logic as foundationIs the anti-foundation axiom considered constructive?Terry Tao's computational perspective on set theoryAre there ways to build mathematics without axiomatizing?How are primitive mathematical objects chosen?Infinitely many axioms of ZFC vs. finitely many axioms of NBGMinimal requirements for standard model of set theory leading to inconsistency?Small and large categories when category theory is taken as the foundation of mathematics










2












$begingroup$


It is said that the ZFC axiom system is a foundation of mathematics.



In my understanding, for something to truly be a foundation, if you gave this system to an entity without any intuition or understanding of the matters at hand, but with enough processing power to work through it without any mistakes (like a computer, or an alien), this entity would develop the same mathematical theory that we use.



However, the symbols and terms used to formulate the axioms, such as logical symbols or the concept of sets, are not formulated explicitly in the given axioms. When being taught set theory, one first uses a "naive" notion of sets, as it is "good enough" to understand basic concepts. This approach relies on an intuitive understanding of sets, one which such entities may not have, and which turns out to be false when going deeper into the theory.



Is it possible to express the axioms in a way which reduces them to their structural properties, such that a "fully formal" being could deduce the whole theory compacted in it without any understanding of what the axioms actually refer to?



Is my understanding of what an axiom system is correct? Do the axioms require a concept of sets beforehand or are all things which obey their structure sets, thus making the axioms implicit definitions?



For context, this question came to me while studying set theory and wondering how we even know what we are talking about in midst of all this formalism, while not admitting that it's actually heavily intuition based.



I welcome all responses to the questions and further reading suggestions, this topic really interests me.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    The axiomatic approach to set theory was certainly developed much later. Similar, people tend to learn basic arithmetic and algebra, before learning about abstract algebra (such as rings, etc). Ancient civilizations probably also had a basic understanding of mathematical geometry before Euclid et al derived certain findings from a specified set of axioms. As far as I understand, axioms are created intentionally so findings coincide with our intutitions. (For example, axioms created by Euclid et al were things that seemed to make sense.)
    $endgroup$
    – Eff
    yesterday











  • $begingroup$
    Just a remark concerning "fully formal" being: In 1899 David Hilbert introduced an axiom system for three-dimensional Euclidean geometry based on the three primitive terms "point, line, plane" and three primitive relations between them. It is attributed to him that he said man könne statt „Punkte, Geraden und Ebenen“ jederzeit auch „Tische, Stühle und Bierseidel“ sagen (it must be possible to replace “point, line, and plane” with “table, chair, and beer mug”). See for example tau.ac.il/~corry/publications/articles/pdf/Hilbert%20Kluwer.pdf.
    $endgroup$
    – Paul Frost
    yesterday















2












$begingroup$


It is said that the ZFC axiom system is a foundation of mathematics.



In my understanding, for something to truly be a foundation, if you gave this system to an entity without any intuition or understanding of the matters at hand, but with enough processing power to work through it without any mistakes (like a computer, or an alien), this entity would develop the same mathematical theory that we use.



However, the symbols and terms used to formulate the axioms, such as logical symbols or the concept of sets, are not formulated explicitly in the given axioms. When being taught set theory, one first uses a "naive" notion of sets, as it is "good enough" to understand basic concepts. This approach relies on an intuitive understanding of sets, one which such entities may not have, and which turns out to be false when going deeper into the theory.



Is it possible to express the axioms in a way which reduces them to their structural properties, such that a "fully formal" being could deduce the whole theory compacted in it without any understanding of what the axioms actually refer to?



Is my understanding of what an axiom system is correct? Do the axioms require a concept of sets beforehand or are all things which obey their structure sets, thus making the axioms implicit definitions?



For context, this question came to me while studying set theory and wondering how we even know what we are talking about in midst of all this formalism, while not admitting that it's actually heavily intuition based.



I welcome all responses to the questions and further reading suggestions, this topic really interests me.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    The axiomatic approach to set theory was certainly developed much later. Similar, people tend to learn basic arithmetic and algebra, before learning about abstract algebra (such as rings, etc). Ancient civilizations probably also had a basic understanding of mathematical geometry before Euclid et al derived certain findings from a specified set of axioms. As far as I understand, axioms are created intentionally so findings coincide with our intutitions. (For example, axioms created by Euclid et al were things that seemed to make sense.)
    $endgroup$
    – Eff
    yesterday











  • $begingroup$
    Just a remark concerning "fully formal" being: In 1899 David Hilbert introduced an axiom system for three-dimensional Euclidean geometry based on the three primitive terms "point, line, plane" and three primitive relations between them. It is attributed to him that he said man könne statt „Punkte, Geraden und Ebenen“ jederzeit auch „Tische, Stühle und Bierseidel“ sagen (it must be possible to replace “point, line, and plane” with “table, chair, and beer mug”). See for example tau.ac.il/~corry/publications/articles/pdf/Hilbert%20Kluwer.pdf.
    $endgroup$
    – Paul Frost
    yesterday













2












2








2





$begingroup$


It is said that the ZFC axiom system is a foundation of mathematics.



In my understanding, for something to truly be a foundation, if you gave this system to an entity without any intuition or understanding of the matters at hand, but with enough processing power to work through it without any mistakes (like a computer, or an alien), this entity would develop the same mathematical theory that we use.



However, the symbols and terms used to formulate the axioms, such as logical symbols or the concept of sets, are not formulated explicitly in the given axioms. When being taught set theory, one first uses a "naive" notion of sets, as it is "good enough" to understand basic concepts. This approach relies on an intuitive understanding of sets, one which such entities may not have, and which turns out to be false when going deeper into the theory.



Is it possible to express the axioms in a way which reduces them to their structural properties, such that a "fully formal" being could deduce the whole theory compacted in it without any understanding of what the axioms actually refer to?



Is my understanding of what an axiom system is correct? Do the axioms require a concept of sets beforehand or are all things which obey their structure sets, thus making the axioms implicit definitions?



For context, this question came to me while studying set theory and wondering how we even know what we are talking about in midst of all this formalism, while not admitting that it's actually heavily intuition based.



I welcome all responses to the questions and further reading suggestions, this topic really interests me.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




It is said that the ZFC axiom system is a foundation of mathematics.



In my understanding, for something to truly be a foundation, if you gave this system to an entity without any intuition or understanding of the matters at hand, but with enough processing power to work through it without any mistakes (like a computer, or an alien), this entity would develop the same mathematical theory that we use.



However, the symbols and terms used to formulate the axioms, such as logical symbols or the concept of sets, are not formulated explicitly in the given axioms. When being taught set theory, one first uses a "naive" notion of sets, as it is "good enough" to understand basic concepts. This approach relies on an intuitive understanding of sets, one which such entities may not have, and which turns out to be false when going deeper into the theory.



Is it possible to express the axioms in a way which reduces them to their structural properties, such that a "fully formal" being could deduce the whole theory compacted in it without any understanding of what the axioms actually refer to?



Is my understanding of what an axiom system is correct? Do the axioms require a concept of sets beforehand or are all things which obey their structure sets, thus making the axioms implicit definitions?



For context, this question came to me while studying set theory and wondering how we even know what we are talking about in midst of all this formalism, while not admitting that it's actually heavily intuition based.



I welcome all responses to the questions and further reading suggestions, this topic really interests me.







soft-question philosophy






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked yesterday









B.SwanB.Swan

1,2471721




1,2471721







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    The axiomatic approach to set theory was certainly developed much later. Similar, people tend to learn basic arithmetic and algebra, before learning about abstract algebra (such as rings, etc). Ancient civilizations probably also had a basic understanding of mathematical geometry before Euclid et al derived certain findings from a specified set of axioms. As far as I understand, axioms are created intentionally so findings coincide with our intutitions. (For example, axioms created by Euclid et al were things that seemed to make sense.)
    $endgroup$
    – Eff
    yesterday











  • $begingroup$
    Just a remark concerning "fully formal" being: In 1899 David Hilbert introduced an axiom system for three-dimensional Euclidean geometry based on the three primitive terms "point, line, plane" and three primitive relations between them. It is attributed to him that he said man könne statt „Punkte, Geraden und Ebenen“ jederzeit auch „Tische, Stühle und Bierseidel“ sagen (it must be possible to replace “point, line, and plane” with “table, chair, and beer mug”). See for example tau.ac.il/~corry/publications/articles/pdf/Hilbert%20Kluwer.pdf.
    $endgroup$
    – Paul Frost
    yesterday












  • 2




    $begingroup$
    The axiomatic approach to set theory was certainly developed much later. Similar, people tend to learn basic arithmetic and algebra, before learning about abstract algebra (such as rings, etc). Ancient civilizations probably also had a basic understanding of mathematical geometry before Euclid et al derived certain findings from a specified set of axioms. As far as I understand, axioms are created intentionally so findings coincide with our intutitions. (For example, axioms created by Euclid et al were things that seemed to make sense.)
    $endgroup$
    – Eff
    yesterday











  • $begingroup$
    Just a remark concerning "fully formal" being: In 1899 David Hilbert introduced an axiom system for three-dimensional Euclidean geometry based on the three primitive terms "point, line, plane" and three primitive relations between them. It is attributed to him that he said man könne statt „Punkte, Geraden und Ebenen“ jederzeit auch „Tische, Stühle und Bierseidel“ sagen (it must be possible to replace “point, line, and plane” with “table, chair, and beer mug”). See for example tau.ac.il/~corry/publications/articles/pdf/Hilbert%20Kluwer.pdf.
    $endgroup$
    – Paul Frost
    yesterday







2




2




$begingroup$
The axiomatic approach to set theory was certainly developed much later. Similar, people tend to learn basic arithmetic and algebra, before learning about abstract algebra (such as rings, etc). Ancient civilizations probably also had a basic understanding of mathematical geometry before Euclid et al derived certain findings from a specified set of axioms. As far as I understand, axioms are created intentionally so findings coincide with our intutitions. (For example, axioms created by Euclid et al were things that seemed to make sense.)
$endgroup$
– Eff
yesterday





$begingroup$
The axiomatic approach to set theory was certainly developed much later. Similar, people tend to learn basic arithmetic and algebra, before learning about abstract algebra (such as rings, etc). Ancient civilizations probably also had a basic understanding of mathematical geometry before Euclid et al derived certain findings from a specified set of axioms. As far as I understand, axioms are created intentionally so findings coincide with our intutitions. (For example, axioms created by Euclid et al were things that seemed to make sense.)
$endgroup$
– Eff
yesterday













$begingroup$
Just a remark concerning "fully formal" being: In 1899 David Hilbert introduced an axiom system for three-dimensional Euclidean geometry based on the three primitive terms "point, line, plane" and three primitive relations between them. It is attributed to him that he said man könne statt „Punkte, Geraden und Ebenen“ jederzeit auch „Tische, Stühle und Bierseidel“ sagen (it must be possible to replace “point, line, and plane” with “table, chair, and beer mug”). See for example tau.ac.il/~corry/publications/articles/pdf/Hilbert%20Kluwer.pdf.
$endgroup$
– Paul Frost
yesterday




$begingroup$
Just a remark concerning "fully formal" being: In 1899 David Hilbert introduced an axiom system for three-dimensional Euclidean geometry based on the three primitive terms "point, line, plane" and three primitive relations between them. It is attributed to him that he said man könne statt „Punkte, Geraden und Ebenen“ jederzeit auch „Tische, Stühle und Bierseidel“ sagen (it must be possible to replace “point, line, and plane” with “table, chair, and beer mug”). See for example tau.ac.il/~corry/publications/articles/pdf/Hilbert%20Kluwer.pdf.
$endgroup$
– Paul Frost
yesterday










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















1












$begingroup$

First of all, ZFC is a foundation for mathematics only in a technical sense: almost all of modern math can be "coded" into ZFC, and the vast majority of theorems can be proved from ZFC. But a differential geometer (to take a random example) doesn't need to know the ZFC axioms; just naive set theory. I cannot think of a field, other than axiomatic set theory (which is thriving), where a practitioner makes deep use of the axioms. As an analogy, ZFC is a foundation for mathematics in the same sense that the binary is a foundation for programming.



Second, answering your question about a "fully formal being" deducing "the whole theory compacted in it": in principle that's true of the axioms as given; they don't need to be rewritten. In other words, a mindless, "brute force" program could generate all consequences of the axioms. This is absurdly inefficient and utterly impractical as a way to answer unsolved problems.



When set theorists use ZFC, they do rely heavily on their intuition. The purpose of ZFC is not to replace intuition, but to sharpen it. For example, you've probably heard that the continuum hypothesis can neither be proven nor disproven from the ZFC axioms. First point: these results are built on top of the ZFC formalization of set theory. Second point: the results don't sweep away all questions concerning the continuum problem, but they do change the whole character of the discussion.



You ask, "Do the axioms require a concept of sets beforehand"? This is partly a philosophical and partly a historical question. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is an excellent online resource for exploring the philosophical issues; you might start with the article Zermelo’s Axiomatization of Set Theory or Hilbert’s Program, and explore links from there. Gregory Moore wrote a paper, "The Origins of Zermelo's Axiomatization of Set Theory" (Journal of Philosophical Logic, Vol. 7, No. 1 (Jan., 1978), pp. 307-329) and a whole book Zermelo's Axiom of Choice: Its Origins, Development, and Influence that deals with many of the historical questions.



Briefly, in the early years of the 20th century, a lot of controversy swirled around naive (Cantorian) set theory, partly because of the paradoxes (Russell, Burali-Forti), and partly because many leading mathematicians were not convinced by Zermelo's proof of the well-ordering theorem. That's just the kind of situation where an axiomatization can clarify matters.






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    $begingroup$

    First of all, ZFC is a foundation for mathematics only in a technical sense: almost all of modern math can be "coded" into ZFC, and the vast majority of theorems can be proved from ZFC. But a differential geometer (to take a random example) doesn't need to know the ZFC axioms; just naive set theory. I cannot think of a field, other than axiomatic set theory (which is thriving), where a practitioner makes deep use of the axioms. As an analogy, ZFC is a foundation for mathematics in the same sense that the binary is a foundation for programming.



    Second, answering your question about a "fully formal being" deducing "the whole theory compacted in it": in principle that's true of the axioms as given; they don't need to be rewritten. In other words, a mindless, "brute force" program could generate all consequences of the axioms. This is absurdly inefficient and utterly impractical as a way to answer unsolved problems.



    When set theorists use ZFC, they do rely heavily on their intuition. The purpose of ZFC is not to replace intuition, but to sharpen it. For example, you've probably heard that the continuum hypothesis can neither be proven nor disproven from the ZFC axioms. First point: these results are built on top of the ZFC formalization of set theory. Second point: the results don't sweep away all questions concerning the continuum problem, but they do change the whole character of the discussion.



    You ask, "Do the axioms require a concept of sets beforehand"? This is partly a philosophical and partly a historical question. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is an excellent online resource for exploring the philosophical issues; you might start with the article Zermelo’s Axiomatization of Set Theory or Hilbert’s Program, and explore links from there. Gregory Moore wrote a paper, "The Origins of Zermelo's Axiomatization of Set Theory" (Journal of Philosophical Logic, Vol. 7, No. 1 (Jan., 1978), pp. 307-329) and a whole book Zermelo's Axiom of Choice: Its Origins, Development, and Influence that deals with many of the historical questions.



    Briefly, in the early years of the 20th century, a lot of controversy swirled around naive (Cantorian) set theory, partly because of the paradoxes (Russell, Burali-Forti), and partly because many leading mathematicians were not convinced by Zermelo's proof of the well-ordering theorem. That's just the kind of situation where an axiomatization can clarify matters.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$

















      1












      $begingroup$

      First of all, ZFC is a foundation for mathematics only in a technical sense: almost all of modern math can be "coded" into ZFC, and the vast majority of theorems can be proved from ZFC. But a differential geometer (to take a random example) doesn't need to know the ZFC axioms; just naive set theory. I cannot think of a field, other than axiomatic set theory (which is thriving), where a practitioner makes deep use of the axioms. As an analogy, ZFC is a foundation for mathematics in the same sense that the binary is a foundation for programming.



      Second, answering your question about a "fully formal being" deducing "the whole theory compacted in it": in principle that's true of the axioms as given; they don't need to be rewritten. In other words, a mindless, "brute force" program could generate all consequences of the axioms. This is absurdly inefficient and utterly impractical as a way to answer unsolved problems.



      When set theorists use ZFC, they do rely heavily on their intuition. The purpose of ZFC is not to replace intuition, but to sharpen it. For example, you've probably heard that the continuum hypothesis can neither be proven nor disproven from the ZFC axioms. First point: these results are built on top of the ZFC formalization of set theory. Second point: the results don't sweep away all questions concerning the continuum problem, but they do change the whole character of the discussion.



      You ask, "Do the axioms require a concept of sets beforehand"? This is partly a philosophical and partly a historical question. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is an excellent online resource for exploring the philosophical issues; you might start with the article Zermelo’s Axiomatization of Set Theory or Hilbert’s Program, and explore links from there. Gregory Moore wrote a paper, "The Origins of Zermelo's Axiomatization of Set Theory" (Journal of Philosophical Logic, Vol. 7, No. 1 (Jan., 1978), pp. 307-329) and a whole book Zermelo's Axiom of Choice: Its Origins, Development, and Influence that deals with many of the historical questions.



      Briefly, in the early years of the 20th century, a lot of controversy swirled around naive (Cantorian) set theory, partly because of the paradoxes (Russell, Burali-Forti), and partly because many leading mathematicians were not convinced by Zermelo's proof of the well-ordering theorem. That's just the kind of situation where an axiomatization can clarify matters.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$















        1












        1








        1





        $begingroup$

        First of all, ZFC is a foundation for mathematics only in a technical sense: almost all of modern math can be "coded" into ZFC, and the vast majority of theorems can be proved from ZFC. But a differential geometer (to take a random example) doesn't need to know the ZFC axioms; just naive set theory. I cannot think of a field, other than axiomatic set theory (which is thriving), where a practitioner makes deep use of the axioms. As an analogy, ZFC is a foundation for mathematics in the same sense that the binary is a foundation for programming.



        Second, answering your question about a "fully formal being" deducing "the whole theory compacted in it": in principle that's true of the axioms as given; they don't need to be rewritten. In other words, a mindless, "brute force" program could generate all consequences of the axioms. This is absurdly inefficient and utterly impractical as a way to answer unsolved problems.



        When set theorists use ZFC, they do rely heavily on their intuition. The purpose of ZFC is not to replace intuition, but to sharpen it. For example, you've probably heard that the continuum hypothesis can neither be proven nor disproven from the ZFC axioms. First point: these results are built on top of the ZFC formalization of set theory. Second point: the results don't sweep away all questions concerning the continuum problem, but they do change the whole character of the discussion.



        You ask, "Do the axioms require a concept of sets beforehand"? This is partly a philosophical and partly a historical question. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is an excellent online resource for exploring the philosophical issues; you might start with the article Zermelo’s Axiomatization of Set Theory or Hilbert’s Program, and explore links from there. Gregory Moore wrote a paper, "The Origins of Zermelo's Axiomatization of Set Theory" (Journal of Philosophical Logic, Vol. 7, No. 1 (Jan., 1978), pp. 307-329) and a whole book Zermelo's Axiom of Choice: Its Origins, Development, and Influence that deals with many of the historical questions.



        Briefly, in the early years of the 20th century, a lot of controversy swirled around naive (Cantorian) set theory, partly because of the paradoxes (Russell, Burali-Forti), and partly because many leading mathematicians were not convinced by Zermelo's proof of the well-ordering theorem. That's just the kind of situation where an axiomatization can clarify matters.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        First of all, ZFC is a foundation for mathematics only in a technical sense: almost all of modern math can be "coded" into ZFC, and the vast majority of theorems can be proved from ZFC. But a differential geometer (to take a random example) doesn't need to know the ZFC axioms; just naive set theory. I cannot think of a field, other than axiomatic set theory (which is thriving), where a practitioner makes deep use of the axioms. As an analogy, ZFC is a foundation for mathematics in the same sense that the binary is a foundation for programming.



        Second, answering your question about a "fully formal being" deducing "the whole theory compacted in it": in principle that's true of the axioms as given; they don't need to be rewritten. In other words, a mindless, "brute force" program could generate all consequences of the axioms. This is absurdly inefficient and utterly impractical as a way to answer unsolved problems.



        When set theorists use ZFC, they do rely heavily on their intuition. The purpose of ZFC is not to replace intuition, but to sharpen it. For example, you've probably heard that the continuum hypothesis can neither be proven nor disproven from the ZFC axioms. First point: these results are built on top of the ZFC formalization of set theory. Second point: the results don't sweep away all questions concerning the continuum problem, but they do change the whole character of the discussion.



        You ask, "Do the axioms require a concept of sets beforehand"? This is partly a philosophical and partly a historical question. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is an excellent online resource for exploring the philosophical issues; you might start with the article Zermelo’s Axiomatization of Set Theory or Hilbert’s Program, and explore links from there. Gregory Moore wrote a paper, "The Origins of Zermelo's Axiomatization of Set Theory" (Journal of Philosophical Logic, Vol. 7, No. 1 (Jan., 1978), pp. 307-329) and a whole book Zermelo's Axiom of Choice: Its Origins, Development, and Influence that deals with many of the historical questions.



        Briefly, in the early years of the 20th century, a lot of controversy swirled around naive (Cantorian) set theory, partly because of the paradoxes (Russell, Burali-Forti), and partly because many leading mathematicians were not convinced by Zermelo's proof of the well-ordering theorem. That's just the kind of situation where an axiomatization can clarify matters.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited yesterday

























        answered yesterday









        Michael WeissMichael Weiss

        3,0011127




        3,0011127



























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