Could a dragon use its wings to swim? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern) The network's official Twitter account is up and running again. What content…Dragon evolving from humanoid: Ice dragonWingless Dragons?Dragon taxonomyCan a dragon be electrocuted?Could this Very Specific Dragon Fly?Can a dragon who can heat parts of its body at will use that to fly?Alternate uses for dragon wings?Anti-Dragon armor, shields and melee weaponsHow would winged humans fight dragons?Is this humanoid dragon realistic the way I’ve imagined it?

How can I fade player character when he goes inside or outside of the area?

Why is "Captain Marvel" translated as male in Portugal?

How discoverable are IPv6 addresses and AAAA names by potential attackers?

What does the "x" in "x86" represent?

What are the pros and cons of Aerospike nosecones?

How widely used is the term Treppenwitz? Is it something that most Germans know?

Proof involving the spectral radius and the Jordan canonical form

What is a Meta algorithm?

3 doors, three guards, one stone

Were Kohanim forbidden from serving in King David's army?

If a contract sometimes uses the wrong name, is it still valid?

Is the address of a local variable a constexpr?

How to motivate offshore teams and trust them to deliver?

Is the Standard Deduction better than Itemized when both are the same amount?

Determinant is linear as a function of each of the rows of the matrix.

Using et al. for a last / senior author rather than for a first author

How to recreate this effect in Photoshop?

iPhone Wallpaper?

List *all* the tuples!

What does '1 unit of lemon juice' mean in a grandma's drink recipe?

Check which numbers satisfy the condition [A*B*C = A! + B! + C!]

Why don't the Weasley twins use magic outside of school if the Trace can only find the location of spells cast?

Is there a documented rationale why the House Ways and Means chairman can demand tax info?

Why is black pepper both grey and black?



Could a dragon use its wings to swim?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)
The network's official Twitter account is up and running again. What content…Dragon evolving from humanoid: Ice dragonWingless Dragons?Dragon taxonomyCan a dragon be electrocuted?Could this Very Specific Dragon Fly?Can a dragon who can heat parts of its body at will use that to fly?Alternate uses for dragon wings?Anti-Dragon armor, shields and melee weaponsHow would winged humans fight dragons?Is this humanoid dragon realistic the way I’ve imagined it?










16












$begingroup$


I have three types of dragons; dragons that primarily fly, dragons that primarily run, and dragons that primarily swim, with all three types being able to do the other two things for a limited amount of time.
What kind of wings would a water dragon have to have to be able to fly as well as swim? I had envisioned them using their wings as flippers, but I don't know if that would work for flying too.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 3




    $begingroup$
    I don't know much about the physics or biology of this kind of thing, but it seems to me the needed motion for swimming vs flying is different? You push "down" against the air when flying, as opposed to pushing "back" against the water when swimming? So, anyone please correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like the range of motion is different for these two things and your dragons would need pretty versatile joints? I'm also now pretty interested in this question, looking forward to seeing what the science-literate folks on here say. P.S. Welcome to Stack Exchange
    $endgroup$
    – MarielS
    Mar 31 at 20:58











  • $begingroup$
    You are not a big fan of How to Train Your Dragon, are you?
    $endgroup$
    – Peter A. Schneider
    Apr 1 at 12:35






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Considering dragons shouldn't even be able to fly I don't see why swimming would be a problem. The Guards! Guards! book from Terry Pratchett goes into great detail about how and why dragons are completely unrealistic and can't exist (while of course having a fully functional dragon in that story anyway). Unless you're talking of pretty small dragons ;)
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    Apr 1 at 13:04






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Mark the discworld swamp dragons also suggest an alternative way that an aquatic species might be able to fly, by imitating a submarine-launched missile...
    $endgroup$
    – Starfish Prime
    Apr 1 at 14:57










  • $begingroup$
    Since you don't have a swim speed requirement, my first thought went to sea-flap-flap dragon. Also, for "limited time" do flying fish count as meeting that? X3
    $endgroup$
    – Tezra
    Apr 1 at 16:41















16












$begingroup$


I have three types of dragons; dragons that primarily fly, dragons that primarily run, and dragons that primarily swim, with all three types being able to do the other two things for a limited amount of time.
What kind of wings would a water dragon have to have to be able to fly as well as swim? I had envisioned them using their wings as flippers, but I don't know if that would work for flying too.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 3




    $begingroup$
    I don't know much about the physics or biology of this kind of thing, but it seems to me the needed motion for swimming vs flying is different? You push "down" against the air when flying, as opposed to pushing "back" against the water when swimming? So, anyone please correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like the range of motion is different for these two things and your dragons would need pretty versatile joints? I'm also now pretty interested in this question, looking forward to seeing what the science-literate folks on here say. P.S. Welcome to Stack Exchange
    $endgroup$
    – MarielS
    Mar 31 at 20:58











  • $begingroup$
    You are not a big fan of How to Train Your Dragon, are you?
    $endgroup$
    – Peter A. Schneider
    Apr 1 at 12:35






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Considering dragons shouldn't even be able to fly I don't see why swimming would be a problem. The Guards! Guards! book from Terry Pratchett goes into great detail about how and why dragons are completely unrealistic and can't exist (while of course having a fully functional dragon in that story anyway). Unless you're talking of pretty small dragons ;)
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    Apr 1 at 13:04






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Mark the discworld swamp dragons also suggest an alternative way that an aquatic species might be able to fly, by imitating a submarine-launched missile...
    $endgroup$
    – Starfish Prime
    Apr 1 at 14:57










  • $begingroup$
    Since you don't have a swim speed requirement, my first thought went to sea-flap-flap dragon. Also, for "limited time" do flying fish count as meeting that? X3
    $endgroup$
    – Tezra
    Apr 1 at 16:41













16












16








16


4



$begingroup$


I have three types of dragons; dragons that primarily fly, dragons that primarily run, and dragons that primarily swim, with all three types being able to do the other two things for a limited amount of time.
What kind of wings would a water dragon have to have to be able to fly as well as swim? I had envisioned them using their wings as flippers, but I don't know if that would work for flying too.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$




I have three types of dragons; dragons that primarily fly, dragons that primarily run, and dragons that primarily swim, with all three types being able to do the other two things for a limited amount of time.
What kind of wings would a water dragon have to have to be able to fly as well as swim? I had envisioned them using their wings as flippers, but I don't know if that would work for flying too.







biology mythical-creatures dragons






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked Mar 31 at 20:53









NadiraSpzirglasNadiraSpzirglas

8115




8115







  • 3




    $begingroup$
    I don't know much about the physics or biology of this kind of thing, but it seems to me the needed motion for swimming vs flying is different? You push "down" against the air when flying, as opposed to pushing "back" against the water when swimming? So, anyone please correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like the range of motion is different for these two things and your dragons would need pretty versatile joints? I'm also now pretty interested in this question, looking forward to seeing what the science-literate folks on here say. P.S. Welcome to Stack Exchange
    $endgroup$
    – MarielS
    Mar 31 at 20:58











  • $begingroup$
    You are not a big fan of How to Train Your Dragon, are you?
    $endgroup$
    – Peter A. Schneider
    Apr 1 at 12:35






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Considering dragons shouldn't even be able to fly I don't see why swimming would be a problem. The Guards! Guards! book from Terry Pratchett goes into great detail about how and why dragons are completely unrealistic and can't exist (while of course having a fully functional dragon in that story anyway). Unless you're talking of pretty small dragons ;)
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    Apr 1 at 13:04






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Mark the discworld swamp dragons also suggest an alternative way that an aquatic species might be able to fly, by imitating a submarine-launched missile...
    $endgroup$
    – Starfish Prime
    Apr 1 at 14:57










  • $begingroup$
    Since you don't have a swim speed requirement, my first thought went to sea-flap-flap dragon. Also, for "limited time" do flying fish count as meeting that? X3
    $endgroup$
    – Tezra
    Apr 1 at 16:41












  • 3




    $begingroup$
    I don't know much about the physics or biology of this kind of thing, but it seems to me the needed motion for swimming vs flying is different? You push "down" against the air when flying, as opposed to pushing "back" against the water when swimming? So, anyone please correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like the range of motion is different for these two things and your dragons would need pretty versatile joints? I'm also now pretty interested in this question, looking forward to seeing what the science-literate folks on here say. P.S. Welcome to Stack Exchange
    $endgroup$
    – MarielS
    Mar 31 at 20:58











  • $begingroup$
    You are not a big fan of How to Train Your Dragon, are you?
    $endgroup$
    – Peter A. Schneider
    Apr 1 at 12:35






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Considering dragons shouldn't even be able to fly I don't see why swimming would be a problem. The Guards! Guards! book from Terry Pratchett goes into great detail about how and why dragons are completely unrealistic and can't exist (while of course having a fully functional dragon in that story anyway). Unless you're talking of pretty small dragons ;)
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    Apr 1 at 13:04






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Mark the discworld swamp dragons also suggest an alternative way that an aquatic species might be able to fly, by imitating a submarine-launched missile...
    $endgroup$
    – Starfish Prime
    Apr 1 at 14:57










  • $begingroup$
    Since you don't have a swim speed requirement, my first thought went to sea-flap-flap dragon. Also, for "limited time" do flying fish count as meeting that? X3
    $endgroup$
    – Tezra
    Apr 1 at 16:41







3




3




$begingroup$
I don't know much about the physics or biology of this kind of thing, but it seems to me the needed motion for swimming vs flying is different? You push "down" against the air when flying, as opposed to pushing "back" against the water when swimming? So, anyone please correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like the range of motion is different for these two things and your dragons would need pretty versatile joints? I'm also now pretty interested in this question, looking forward to seeing what the science-literate folks on here say. P.S. Welcome to Stack Exchange
$endgroup$
– MarielS
Mar 31 at 20:58





$begingroup$
I don't know much about the physics or biology of this kind of thing, but it seems to me the needed motion for swimming vs flying is different? You push "down" against the air when flying, as opposed to pushing "back" against the water when swimming? So, anyone please correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like the range of motion is different for these two things and your dragons would need pretty versatile joints? I'm also now pretty interested in this question, looking forward to seeing what the science-literate folks on here say. P.S. Welcome to Stack Exchange
$endgroup$
– MarielS
Mar 31 at 20:58













$begingroup$
You are not a big fan of How to Train Your Dragon, are you?
$endgroup$
– Peter A. Schneider
Apr 1 at 12:35




$begingroup$
You are not a big fan of How to Train Your Dragon, are you?
$endgroup$
– Peter A. Schneider
Apr 1 at 12:35




4




4




$begingroup$
Considering dragons shouldn't even be able to fly I don't see why swimming would be a problem. The Guards! Guards! book from Terry Pratchett goes into great detail about how and why dragons are completely unrealistic and can't exist (while of course having a fully functional dragon in that story anyway). Unless you're talking of pretty small dragons ;)
$endgroup$
– Mark
Apr 1 at 13:04




$begingroup$
Considering dragons shouldn't even be able to fly I don't see why swimming would be a problem. The Guards! Guards! book from Terry Pratchett goes into great detail about how and why dragons are completely unrealistic and can't exist (while of course having a fully functional dragon in that story anyway). Unless you're talking of pretty small dragons ;)
$endgroup$
– Mark
Apr 1 at 13:04




1




1




$begingroup$
@Mark the discworld swamp dragons also suggest an alternative way that an aquatic species might be able to fly, by imitating a submarine-launched missile...
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
Apr 1 at 14:57




$begingroup$
@Mark the discworld swamp dragons also suggest an alternative way that an aquatic species might be able to fly, by imitating a submarine-launched missile...
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
Apr 1 at 14:57












$begingroup$
Since you don't have a swim speed requirement, my first thought went to sea-flap-flap dragon. Also, for "limited time" do flying fish count as meeting that? X3
$endgroup$
– Tezra
Apr 1 at 16:41




$begingroup$
Since you don't have a swim speed requirement, my first thought went to sea-flap-flap dragon. Also, for "limited time" do flying fish count as meeting that? X3
$endgroup$
– Tezra
Apr 1 at 16:41










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















31












$begingroup$

Totally yes.



If these ducks can do it, your dragons can do it. The video is great - these ducks are flying down to the ocean floor.



duck flying thru water
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7wY4Cnuk-s



It occurs to me that it would be good for something like a dragon to be able to use only part of its wing at first. I worry the forces put over the entirety of the wing to move that much water could tear the wing. As the dragon got up to speed it could use more and more wing.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 7




    $begingroup$
    The ducks are only using a fraction of their wingspan to swim as the forces and movement are different from flying. The dragons should be fine keeping their wings tucked in the same way.
    $endgroup$
    – Separatrix
    Apr 1 at 11:11






  • 6




    $begingroup$
    Ducks are perfect "Jack of all trades - master of none" when it comes to locomotion. They can fly, walk, swim and dive, but are not particularlily good at either. But they evolved that way. I am not sure if it can just be transferred to dragons.
    $endgroup$
    – Philipp
    Apr 1 at 15:10







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    @Phillipp - I like the idea of dragon "jack of all trades". They are big but not the biggest. They are fierce but there are fierce things out there that can take one. They are smart but not the smartest. They cooperate with each other, but usually out of necessity. They can fly, run, swim and dive, and even dig, but not the greatest at any of those things. Maybe the thing they are best at is copying: if a dragon sees another creature doing something, it thinks "I bet I can do that" and it is usually right, to some degree.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    Apr 1 at 16:35






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @Philipp It's fantasy, so why couldn't it be transferred to dragons? Dragons are already impossible in real life, regardless of whether they can swim.
    $endgroup$
    – only_pro
    Apr 1 at 17:40



















15












$begingroup$

There are certainly real-life birds that can fly in air and primarily hunt underwater by swimming with their wings... puffins. There are other birds that swim underwater primarily by kicking with their feet, such as diving ducks and cormorants, and there are birds that use a mixture of the two strategies, like gannets (which can also do awesome 100kph power dives from 60m up). There's plenty of footage on youtube of all these birds doing what you're interested in, so at this scale what you want is clearly possible (though dragons with huge webbed feet might not be quite so intrinsically bad-ass as ones with talons. ymmv).



I strongly suspect that there will be scaling issues... for the same reason that large flying dragons are awkward things to make plausible (see countless questions on this site passim ad nauseam) making very large flippers remain light and strong and fast enough for flight and remain tough and powerful enough for swimming is likely to be very difficult. If you've already handwaved dragons into your scenario, perhaps this is less of an issue for you. For the record, northern gannets have a 180cm wingspan, so if your dragons are about this sort of size, you'll be just fine.



Now, there are tradeoffs to be made. Penguins clearly outswim all of the above, but they can't fly and so can't really live anywhere with land predators. Puffins can outswim gannets, but both are outflown by piratical birds such as skuas which will attack the them and steal their catch (see kleptoparasitism in birds). Remember that sort of thing if you're making an ecosystem with various dragon species in it. Personally, I feel that flight is often overrated. See also: the astonishing success of your own species, flight-envy notwithstanding, the wide spread of penguins which don't have much use for flying and especially ants which were able to fly once but mostly gave it up and have become extraordinarily successful. When it comes to sea dragons, I can understand that not everyone is excited by the idea of giant marine iguanas that might breathe fire or create pistol-shrimp style shockwaves underwater, though :-(






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    +1 for mentioning gannets - which are impressive as hell up close when you're rowing a dinghy and they smack into the water right next to you...
    $endgroup$
    – GerardFalla
    Apr 1 at 19:38


















9












$begingroup$

Absolutely, but there are some interesting physiological tradeoffs.



Many birds also swim underwater, and there are broadly two techniques for doing so.



Swimming with feet



The first is to use your feet for paddling. Birds such as grebes, loons and cormorants do this, and it can be very effective. It's beneficial as it allows their wings to be well adapted to flight while still being capably of swimming underwater. It also allows for a lot of manoeuvrability.



The first tradeoff is that it's not quite as efficient as using wings so you rarely find it as a sole strategy among sea birds. It's more common among freshwater birds.



The second tradeoff is that to make it more efficient for diving, you tend to need legs that are further and further back on your body. This makes it more and more awkward to walk on land (which is necessary at least for laying eggs). You can see this quite starkly in the extinct Hesperornis which was a sea-going bird that swam with its legs and was probably very ungainly on land.



HesperornisHesperornis



Swimming by generating lift with wings



The second option is to swim using exactly the same mechanics as flight. Flapping wings produce lift and thrust in exactly the same way whether they're operating in air or water. This can be very efficient, and is how the majority of sea-going diving birds swim. However, there are some key differences.



As air isn't very dense, to fly you want a wing that has quite a lot of surface area compared to the weight/area you're trying to move. Strength-wise, you can get away with this as the wing loadings aren't very high.



Water, however, is much denser. For a given power-stroke, you will generate much more lift and thrust, and your wings will be under much higher strain. So, what you want for swimming is short, stubby but strongly built wings.



What you get in diving birds is very often a compromise. Either they will have wings that are pretty well adapted for flying and their swimming ability suffers (shearwaters for instance), or they are very good at swimming but are not very efficient flyers (Puffins). Some pics to illustrate:



Shearwater



Puffin



Puffins actually have some of the highest flight costs of any birds. Go far enough this way any you'll lose the ability to fly at all and become extremely efficient swimmers, like penguins.



Some further considerations



One of the other key issues with flight vs swimming is weight. In order to fly efficiently, you want to be as light as possible. In order to swim efficiently, you want to be as close to the density of water as possible. This is a big hurdle for any animal that wants to do both.



Birds specifically have lungs that don't really inflate or deflate like ours do, so they are trying to dive with inflated air sacs inside them. Seabirds have some of the densest bones in the bird family, which helps counteract this buoyancy. Some also swallow stones for ballast.



Feathers are also designed to trap air pockets inside them to increase their surface area for a given weight which is not what you want for diving. Diving birds with waterproof feathers often preen them before diving in order to drive out any trapped air, and some like cormorants don't have waterproof feathers which allows them to get waterlogged while diving and decrease their buoyancy (at the cost of having to dry them out in the sun before they can fly again).



tl;dr All of this adds up to a set of tradeoffs where if you want to be a better swimmer, you will have to make sacrifices in efficiency for flying and/or walking.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    4












    $begingroup$

    Water is about 3 orders of magnitude denser than air.



    This means that, for a given profile and velocity, lift forces and drag will be as much as higher in water than in air.



    If you need to have lift in air you need a large surface, which would be too large in water. See penguins: their small wings work like a charm in water, but are totally useless to fly.



    Unless your dragon has a foldable membrane that can be deployed only in air, there is no way that water optimized find/wings can provide lift in air.



    This also answer your question: the water dragons can deploy an additional membrane to get lift when they venture in the air, an they keep the membrane unused when in water, to reduce drag.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$








    • 2




      $begingroup$
      Every dragon (and bird) already has a way to retract their "membrane", because they tuck their wing in on an upwards flap and extend it on a downwards flap when they are flying. The difference in surface area (and thus force exerted) is how they are able to gain altitude. The exact same principle applies underwater. This is used by humans (e.g. breaststroke: wide when pulling your arms back, narrow when pushing your ars forward) and birds who swim underwater (as per the other answers).
      $endgroup$
      – Flater
      Apr 1 at 12:45











    • $begingroup$
      Wings, arms and legs: folded; uses its elongated body with a protractable membrane vertically on its tail for swimming. Basically an eel with six appendages. Six of which only cause drag underwater, and four while in flight. And 2~4 required only for walking on land.
      $endgroup$
      – Mazura
      Apr 1 at 23:39


















    4












    $begingroup$

    If fish can have fins that allow for flight, so can your dragon.



    I believe I can flyyyy...



    Just don't expect to be able to ride one in flight, or to see it going on for more than a couple hundred meters at a time.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      There are of course other options for primarily aquatic animals who'd like to fly... water jets! blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/02/20/…
      $endgroup$
      – Starfish Prime
      Apr 1 at 12:17










    • $begingroup$
      Since your answer is built on "flying fish can do it", it is relevant to consider that flying fish glide, they don't fly. They are limited by whatever force they can muster when they jump out of the water, and then they just coast until they land.
      $endgroup$
      – Flater
      Apr 1 at 12:47







    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Flater I guess it also depends on the OP's definition of "flying" for the water dragons. If OP just needs short bursts of movement through air without fancy maneuvers or sustained flight, jump-and-glide could very well serve the purpose
      $endgroup$
      – Delioth
      Apr 1 at 14:03










    • $begingroup$
      @Delioth: Keep mind of the square cube law though. Surface area of the wing is a square, but a dragon's mass is a cube. When you scale the flying fish, you will reach a point where the wings won't properly glide anymore even though they may have the same relative size to the dragon's body as is the case for the flying fish.
      $endgroup$
      – Flater
      Apr 1 at 14:15







    • 2




      $begingroup$
      What about steam powered jets, assuming these are fire-breathing dragons? Ingest water, add fire, expel as steam for initial propulsion
      $endgroup$
      – Mick O'Hea
      Apr 1 at 15:08











    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "579"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f142896%2fcould-a-dragon-use-its-wings-to-swim%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    5 Answers
    5






    active

    oldest

    votes








    5 Answers
    5






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    31












    $begingroup$

    Totally yes.



    If these ducks can do it, your dragons can do it. The video is great - these ducks are flying down to the ocean floor.



    duck flying thru water
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7wY4Cnuk-s



    It occurs to me that it would be good for something like a dragon to be able to use only part of its wing at first. I worry the forces put over the entirety of the wing to move that much water could tear the wing. As the dragon got up to speed it could use more and more wing.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$








    • 7




      $begingroup$
      The ducks are only using a fraction of their wingspan to swim as the forces and movement are different from flying. The dragons should be fine keeping their wings tucked in the same way.
      $endgroup$
      – Separatrix
      Apr 1 at 11:11






    • 6




      $begingroup$
      Ducks are perfect "Jack of all trades - master of none" when it comes to locomotion. They can fly, walk, swim and dive, but are not particularlily good at either. But they evolved that way. I am not sure if it can just be transferred to dragons.
      $endgroup$
      – Philipp
      Apr 1 at 15:10







    • 4




      $begingroup$
      @Phillipp - I like the idea of dragon "jack of all trades". They are big but not the biggest. They are fierce but there are fierce things out there that can take one. They are smart but not the smartest. They cooperate with each other, but usually out of necessity. They can fly, run, swim and dive, and even dig, but not the greatest at any of those things. Maybe the thing they are best at is copying: if a dragon sees another creature doing something, it thinks "I bet I can do that" and it is usually right, to some degree.
      $endgroup$
      – Willk
      Apr 1 at 16:35






    • 5




      $begingroup$
      @Philipp It's fantasy, so why couldn't it be transferred to dragons? Dragons are already impossible in real life, regardless of whether they can swim.
      $endgroup$
      – only_pro
      Apr 1 at 17:40
















    31












    $begingroup$

    Totally yes.



    If these ducks can do it, your dragons can do it. The video is great - these ducks are flying down to the ocean floor.



    duck flying thru water
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7wY4Cnuk-s



    It occurs to me that it would be good for something like a dragon to be able to use only part of its wing at first. I worry the forces put over the entirety of the wing to move that much water could tear the wing. As the dragon got up to speed it could use more and more wing.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$








    • 7




      $begingroup$
      The ducks are only using a fraction of their wingspan to swim as the forces and movement are different from flying. The dragons should be fine keeping their wings tucked in the same way.
      $endgroup$
      – Separatrix
      Apr 1 at 11:11






    • 6




      $begingroup$
      Ducks are perfect "Jack of all trades - master of none" when it comes to locomotion. They can fly, walk, swim and dive, but are not particularlily good at either. But they evolved that way. I am not sure if it can just be transferred to dragons.
      $endgroup$
      – Philipp
      Apr 1 at 15:10







    • 4




      $begingroup$
      @Phillipp - I like the idea of dragon "jack of all trades". They are big but not the biggest. They are fierce but there are fierce things out there that can take one. They are smart but not the smartest. They cooperate with each other, but usually out of necessity. They can fly, run, swim and dive, and even dig, but not the greatest at any of those things. Maybe the thing they are best at is copying: if a dragon sees another creature doing something, it thinks "I bet I can do that" and it is usually right, to some degree.
      $endgroup$
      – Willk
      Apr 1 at 16:35






    • 5




      $begingroup$
      @Philipp It's fantasy, so why couldn't it be transferred to dragons? Dragons are already impossible in real life, regardless of whether they can swim.
      $endgroup$
      – only_pro
      Apr 1 at 17:40














    31












    31








    31





    $begingroup$

    Totally yes.



    If these ducks can do it, your dragons can do it. The video is great - these ducks are flying down to the ocean floor.



    duck flying thru water
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7wY4Cnuk-s



    It occurs to me that it would be good for something like a dragon to be able to use only part of its wing at first. I worry the forces put over the entirety of the wing to move that much water could tear the wing. As the dragon got up to speed it could use more and more wing.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    Totally yes.



    If these ducks can do it, your dragons can do it. The video is great - these ducks are flying down to the ocean floor.



    duck flying thru water
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7wY4Cnuk-s



    It occurs to me that it would be good for something like a dragon to be able to use only part of its wing at first. I worry the forces put over the entirety of the wing to move that much water could tear the wing. As the dragon got up to speed it could use more and more wing.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered Mar 31 at 21:05









    WillkWillk

    117k28222492




    117k28222492







    • 7




      $begingroup$
      The ducks are only using a fraction of their wingspan to swim as the forces and movement are different from flying. The dragons should be fine keeping their wings tucked in the same way.
      $endgroup$
      – Separatrix
      Apr 1 at 11:11






    • 6




      $begingroup$
      Ducks are perfect "Jack of all trades - master of none" when it comes to locomotion. They can fly, walk, swim and dive, but are not particularlily good at either. But they evolved that way. I am not sure if it can just be transferred to dragons.
      $endgroup$
      – Philipp
      Apr 1 at 15:10







    • 4




      $begingroup$
      @Phillipp - I like the idea of dragon "jack of all trades". They are big but not the biggest. They are fierce but there are fierce things out there that can take one. They are smart but not the smartest. They cooperate with each other, but usually out of necessity. They can fly, run, swim and dive, and even dig, but not the greatest at any of those things. Maybe the thing they are best at is copying: if a dragon sees another creature doing something, it thinks "I bet I can do that" and it is usually right, to some degree.
      $endgroup$
      – Willk
      Apr 1 at 16:35






    • 5




      $begingroup$
      @Philipp It's fantasy, so why couldn't it be transferred to dragons? Dragons are already impossible in real life, regardless of whether they can swim.
      $endgroup$
      – only_pro
      Apr 1 at 17:40













    • 7




      $begingroup$
      The ducks are only using a fraction of their wingspan to swim as the forces and movement are different from flying. The dragons should be fine keeping their wings tucked in the same way.
      $endgroup$
      – Separatrix
      Apr 1 at 11:11






    • 6




      $begingroup$
      Ducks are perfect "Jack of all trades - master of none" when it comes to locomotion. They can fly, walk, swim and dive, but are not particularlily good at either. But they evolved that way. I am not sure if it can just be transferred to dragons.
      $endgroup$
      – Philipp
      Apr 1 at 15:10







    • 4




      $begingroup$
      @Phillipp - I like the idea of dragon "jack of all trades". They are big but not the biggest. They are fierce but there are fierce things out there that can take one. They are smart but not the smartest. They cooperate with each other, but usually out of necessity. They can fly, run, swim and dive, and even dig, but not the greatest at any of those things. Maybe the thing they are best at is copying: if a dragon sees another creature doing something, it thinks "I bet I can do that" and it is usually right, to some degree.
      $endgroup$
      – Willk
      Apr 1 at 16:35






    • 5




      $begingroup$
      @Philipp It's fantasy, so why couldn't it be transferred to dragons? Dragons are already impossible in real life, regardless of whether they can swim.
      $endgroup$
      – only_pro
      Apr 1 at 17:40








    7




    7




    $begingroup$
    The ducks are only using a fraction of their wingspan to swim as the forces and movement are different from flying. The dragons should be fine keeping their wings tucked in the same way.
    $endgroup$
    – Separatrix
    Apr 1 at 11:11




    $begingroup$
    The ducks are only using a fraction of their wingspan to swim as the forces and movement are different from flying. The dragons should be fine keeping their wings tucked in the same way.
    $endgroup$
    – Separatrix
    Apr 1 at 11:11




    6




    6




    $begingroup$
    Ducks are perfect "Jack of all trades - master of none" when it comes to locomotion. They can fly, walk, swim and dive, but are not particularlily good at either. But they evolved that way. I am not sure if it can just be transferred to dragons.
    $endgroup$
    – Philipp
    Apr 1 at 15:10





    $begingroup$
    Ducks are perfect "Jack of all trades - master of none" when it comes to locomotion. They can fly, walk, swim and dive, but are not particularlily good at either. But they evolved that way. I am not sure if it can just be transferred to dragons.
    $endgroup$
    – Philipp
    Apr 1 at 15:10





    4




    4




    $begingroup$
    @Phillipp - I like the idea of dragon "jack of all trades". They are big but not the biggest. They are fierce but there are fierce things out there that can take one. They are smart but not the smartest. They cooperate with each other, but usually out of necessity. They can fly, run, swim and dive, and even dig, but not the greatest at any of those things. Maybe the thing they are best at is copying: if a dragon sees another creature doing something, it thinks "I bet I can do that" and it is usually right, to some degree.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    Apr 1 at 16:35




    $begingroup$
    @Phillipp - I like the idea of dragon "jack of all trades". They are big but not the biggest. They are fierce but there are fierce things out there that can take one. They are smart but not the smartest. They cooperate with each other, but usually out of necessity. They can fly, run, swim and dive, and even dig, but not the greatest at any of those things. Maybe the thing they are best at is copying: if a dragon sees another creature doing something, it thinks "I bet I can do that" and it is usually right, to some degree.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    Apr 1 at 16:35




    5




    5




    $begingroup$
    @Philipp It's fantasy, so why couldn't it be transferred to dragons? Dragons are already impossible in real life, regardless of whether they can swim.
    $endgroup$
    – only_pro
    Apr 1 at 17:40





    $begingroup$
    @Philipp It's fantasy, so why couldn't it be transferred to dragons? Dragons are already impossible in real life, regardless of whether they can swim.
    $endgroup$
    – only_pro
    Apr 1 at 17:40












    15












    $begingroup$

    There are certainly real-life birds that can fly in air and primarily hunt underwater by swimming with their wings... puffins. There are other birds that swim underwater primarily by kicking with their feet, such as diving ducks and cormorants, and there are birds that use a mixture of the two strategies, like gannets (which can also do awesome 100kph power dives from 60m up). There's plenty of footage on youtube of all these birds doing what you're interested in, so at this scale what you want is clearly possible (though dragons with huge webbed feet might not be quite so intrinsically bad-ass as ones with talons. ymmv).



    I strongly suspect that there will be scaling issues... for the same reason that large flying dragons are awkward things to make plausible (see countless questions on this site passim ad nauseam) making very large flippers remain light and strong and fast enough for flight and remain tough and powerful enough for swimming is likely to be very difficult. If you've already handwaved dragons into your scenario, perhaps this is less of an issue for you. For the record, northern gannets have a 180cm wingspan, so if your dragons are about this sort of size, you'll be just fine.



    Now, there are tradeoffs to be made. Penguins clearly outswim all of the above, but they can't fly and so can't really live anywhere with land predators. Puffins can outswim gannets, but both are outflown by piratical birds such as skuas which will attack the them and steal their catch (see kleptoparasitism in birds). Remember that sort of thing if you're making an ecosystem with various dragon species in it. Personally, I feel that flight is often overrated. See also: the astonishing success of your own species, flight-envy notwithstanding, the wide spread of penguins which don't have much use for flying and especially ants which were able to fly once but mostly gave it up and have become extraordinarily successful. When it comes to sea dragons, I can understand that not everyone is excited by the idea of giant marine iguanas that might breathe fire or create pistol-shrimp style shockwaves underwater, though :-(






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$








    • 2




      $begingroup$
      +1 for mentioning gannets - which are impressive as hell up close when you're rowing a dinghy and they smack into the water right next to you...
      $endgroup$
      – GerardFalla
      Apr 1 at 19:38















    15












    $begingroup$

    There are certainly real-life birds that can fly in air and primarily hunt underwater by swimming with their wings... puffins. There are other birds that swim underwater primarily by kicking with their feet, such as diving ducks and cormorants, and there are birds that use a mixture of the two strategies, like gannets (which can also do awesome 100kph power dives from 60m up). There's plenty of footage on youtube of all these birds doing what you're interested in, so at this scale what you want is clearly possible (though dragons with huge webbed feet might not be quite so intrinsically bad-ass as ones with talons. ymmv).



    I strongly suspect that there will be scaling issues... for the same reason that large flying dragons are awkward things to make plausible (see countless questions on this site passim ad nauseam) making very large flippers remain light and strong and fast enough for flight and remain tough and powerful enough for swimming is likely to be very difficult. If you've already handwaved dragons into your scenario, perhaps this is less of an issue for you. For the record, northern gannets have a 180cm wingspan, so if your dragons are about this sort of size, you'll be just fine.



    Now, there are tradeoffs to be made. Penguins clearly outswim all of the above, but they can't fly and so can't really live anywhere with land predators. Puffins can outswim gannets, but both are outflown by piratical birds such as skuas which will attack the them and steal their catch (see kleptoparasitism in birds). Remember that sort of thing if you're making an ecosystem with various dragon species in it. Personally, I feel that flight is often overrated. See also: the astonishing success of your own species, flight-envy notwithstanding, the wide spread of penguins which don't have much use for flying and especially ants which were able to fly once but mostly gave it up and have become extraordinarily successful. When it comes to sea dragons, I can understand that not everyone is excited by the idea of giant marine iguanas that might breathe fire or create pistol-shrimp style shockwaves underwater, though :-(






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$








    • 2




      $begingroup$
      +1 for mentioning gannets - which are impressive as hell up close when you're rowing a dinghy and they smack into the water right next to you...
      $endgroup$
      – GerardFalla
      Apr 1 at 19:38













    15












    15








    15





    $begingroup$

    There are certainly real-life birds that can fly in air and primarily hunt underwater by swimming with their wings... puffins. There are other birds that swim underwater primarily by kicking with their feet, such as diving ducks and cormorants, and there are birds that use a mixture of the two strategies, like gannets (which can also do awesome 100kph power dives from 60m up). There's plenty of footage on youtube of all these birds doing what you're interested in, so at this scale what you want is clearly possible (though dragons with huge webbed feet might not be quite so intrinsically bad-ass as ones with talons. ymmv).



    I strongly suspect that there will be scaling issues... for the same reason that large flying dragons are awkward things to make plausible (see countless questions on this site passim ad nauseam) making very large flippers remain light and strong and fast enough for flight and remain tough and powerful enough for swimming is likely to be very difficult. If you've already handwaved dragons into your scenario, perhaps this is less of an issue for you. For the record, northern gannets have a 180cm wingspan, so if your dragons are about this sort of size, you'll be just fine.



    Now, there are tradeoffs to be made. Penguins clearly outswim all of the above, but they can't fly and so can't really live anywhere with land predators. Puffins can outswim gannets, but both are outflown by piratical birds such as skuas which will attack the them and steal their catch (see kleptoparasitism in birds). Remember that sort of thing if you're making an ecosystem with various dragon species in it. Personally, I feel that flight is often overrated. See also: the astonishing success of your own species, flight-envy notwithstanding, the wide spread of penguins which don't have much use for flying and especially ants which were able to fly once but mostly gave it up and have become extraordinarily successful. When it comes to sea dragons, I can understand that not everyone is excited by the idea of giant marine iguanas that might breathe fire or create pistol-shrimp style shockwaves underwater, though :-(






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    There are certainly real-life birds that can fly in air and primarily hunt underwater by swimming with their wings... puffins. There are other birds that swim underwater primarily by kicking with their feet, such as diving ducks and cormorants, and there are birds that use a mixture of the two strategies, like gannets (which can also do awesome 100kph power dives from 60m up). There's plenty of footage on youtube of all these birds doing what you're interested in, so at this scale what you want is clearly possible (though dragons with huge webbed feet might not be quite so intrinsically bad-ass as ones with talons. ymmv).



    I strongly suspect that there will be scaling issues... for the same reason that large flying dragons are awkward things to make plausible (see countless questions on this site passim ad nauseam) making very large flippers remain light and strong and fast enough for flight and remain tough and powerful enough for swimming is likely to be very difficult. If you've already handwaved dragons into your scenario, perhaps this is less of an issue for you. For the record, northern gannets have a 180cm wingspan, so if your dragons are about this sort of size, you'll be just fine.



    Now, there are tradeoffs to be made. Penguins clearly outswim all of the above, but they can't fly and so can't really live anywhere with land predators. Puffins can outswim gannets, but both are outflown by piratical birds such as skuas which will attack the them and steal their catch (see kleptoparasitism in birds). Remember that sort of thing if you're making an ecosystem with various dragon species in it. Personally, I feel that flight is often overrated. See also: the astonishing success of your own species, flight-envy notwithstanding, the wide spread of penguins which don't have much use for flying and especially ants which were able to fly once but mostly gave it up and have become extraordinarily successful. When it comes to sea dragons, I can understand that not everyone is excited by the idea of giant marine iguanas that might breathe fire or create pistol-shrimp style shockwaves underwater, though :-(







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Apr 1 at 19:48

























    answered Mar 31 at 21:13









    Starfish PrimeStarfish Prime

    1,341214




    1,341214







    • 2




      $begingroup$
      +1 for mentioning gannets - which are impressive as hell up close when you're rowing a dinghy and they smack into the water right next to you...
      $endgroup$
      – GerardFalla
      Apr 1 at 19:38












    • 2




      $begingroup$
      +1 for mentioning gannets - which are impressive as hell up close when you're rowing a dinghy and they smack into the water right next to you...
      $endgroup$
      – GerardFalla
      Apr 1 at 19:38







    2




    2




    $begingroup$
    +1 for mentioning gannets - which are impressive as hell up close when you're rowing a dinghy and they smack into the water right next to you...
    $endgroup$
    – GerardFalla
    Apr 1 at 19:38




    $begingroup$
    +1 for mentioning gannets - which are impressive as hell up close when you're rowing a dinghy and they smack into the water right next to you...
    $endgroup$
    – GerardFalla
    Apr 1 at 19:38











    9












    $begingroup$

    Absolutely, but there are some interesting physiological tradeoffs.



    Many birds also swim underwater, and there are broadly two techniques for doing so.



    Swimming with feet



    The first is to use your feet for paddling. Birds such as grebes, loons and cormorants do this, and it can be very effective. It's beneficial as it allows their wings to be well adapted to flight while still being capably of swimming underwater. It also allows for a lot of manoeuvrability.



    The first tradeoff is that it's not quite as efficient as using wings so you rarely find it as a sole strategy among sea birds. It's more common among freshwater birds.



    The second tradeoff is that to make it more efficient for diving, you tend to need legs that are further and further back on your body. This makes it more and more awkward to walk on land (which is necessary at least for laying eggs). You can see this quite starkly in the extinct Hesperornis which was a sea-going bird that swam with its legs and was probably very ungainly on land.



    HesperornisHesperornis



    Swimming by generating lift with wings



    The second option is to swim using exactly the same mechanics as flight. Flapping wings produce lift and thrust in exactly the same way whether they're operating in air or water. This can be very efficient, and is how the majority of sea-going diving birds swim. However, there are some key differences.



    As air isn't very dense, to fly you want a wing that has quite a lot of surface area compared to the weight/area you're trying to move. Strength-wise, you can get away with this as the wing loadings aren't very high.



    Water, however, is much denser. For a given power-stroke, you will generate much more lift and thrust, and your wings will be under much higher strain. So, what you want for swimming is short, stubby but strongly built wings.



    What you get in diving birds is very often a compromise. Either they will have wings that are pretty well adapted for flying and their swimming ability suffers (shearwaters for instance), or they are very good at swimming but are not very efficient flyers (Puffins). Some pics to illustrate:



    Shearwater



    Puffin



    Puffins actually have some of the highest flight costs of any birds. Go far enough this way any you'll lose the ability to fly at all and become extremely efficient swimmers, like penguins.



    Some further considerations



    One of the other key issues with flight vs swimming is weight. In order to fly efficiently, you want to be as light as possible. In order to swim efficiently, you want to be as close to the density of water as possible. This is a big hurdle for any animal that wants to do both.



    Birds specifically have lungs that don't really inflate or deflate like ours do, so they are trying to dive with inflated air sacs inside them. Seabirds have some of the densest bones in the bird family, which helps counteract this buoyancy. Some also swallow stones for ballast.



    Feathers are also designed to trap air pockets inside them to increase their surface area for a given weight which is not what you want for diving. Diving birds with waterproof feathers often preen them before diving in order to drive out any trapped air, and some like cormorants don't have waterproof feathers which allows them to get waterlogged while diving and decrease their buoyancy (at the cost of having to dry them out in the sun before they can fly again).



    tl;dr All of this adds up to a set of tradeoffs where if you want to be a better swimmer, you will have to make sacrifices in efficiency for flying and/or walking.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$

















      9












      $begingroup$

      Absolutely, but there are some interesting physiological tradeoffs.



      Many birds also swim underwater, and there are broadly two techniques for doing so.



      Swimming with feet



      The first is to use your feet for paddling. Birds such as grebes, loons and cormorants do this, and it can be very effective. It's beneficial as it allows their wings to be well adapted to flight while still being capably of swimming underwater. It also allows for a lot of manoeuvrability.



      The first tradeoff is that it's not quite as efficient as using wings so you rarely find it as a sole strategy among sea birds. It's more common among freshwater birds.



      The second tradeoff is that to make it more efficient for diving, you tend to need legs that are further and further back on your body. This makes it more and more awkward to walk on land (which is necessary at least for laying eggs). You can see this quite starkly in the extinct Hesperornis which was a sea-going bird that swam with its legs and was probably very ungainly on land.



      HesperornisHesperornis



      Swimming by generating lift with wings



      The second option is to swim using exactly the same mechanics as flight. Flapping wings produce lift and thrust in exactly the same way whether they're operating in air or water. This can be very efficient, and is how the majority of sea-going diving birds swim. However, there are some key differences.



      As air isn't very dense, to fly you want a wing that has quite a lot of surface area compared to the weight/area you're trying to move. Strength-wise, you can get away with this as the wing loadings aren't very high.



      Water, however, is much denser. For a given power-stroke, you will generate much more lift and thrust, and your wings will be under much higher strain. So, what you want for swimming is short, stubby but strongly built wings.



      What you get in diving birds is very often a compromise. Either they will have wings that are pretty well adapted for flying and their swimming ability suffers (shearwaters for instance), or they are very good at swimming but are not very efficient flyers (Puffins). Some pics to illustrate:



      Shearwater



      Puffin



      Puffins actually have some of the highest flight costs of any birds. Go far enough this way any you'll lose the ability to fly at all and become extremely efficient swimmers, like penguins.



      Some further considerations



      One of the other key issues with flight vs swimming is weight. In order to fly efficiently, you want to be as light as possible. In order to swim efficiently, you want to be as close to the density of water as possible. This is a big hurdle for any animal that wants to do both.



      Birds specifically have lungs that don't really inflate or deflate like ours do, so they are trying to dive with inflated air sacs inside them. Seabirds have some of the densest bones in the bird family, which helps counteract this buoyancy. Some also swallow stones for ballast.



      Feathers are also designed to trap air pockets inside them to increase their surface area for a given weight which is not what you want for diving. Diving birds with waterproof feathers often preen them before diving in order to drive out any trapped air, and some like cormorants don't have waterproof feathers which allows them to get waterlogged while diving and decrease their buoyancy (at the cost of having to dry them out in the sun before they can fly again).



      tl;dr All of this adds up to a set of tradeoffs where if you want to be a better swimmer, you will have to make sacrifices in efficiency for flying and/or walking.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$















        9












        9








        9





        $begingroup$

        Absolutely, but there are some interesting physiological tradeoffs.



        Many birds also swim underwater, and there are broadly two techniques for doing so.



        Swimming with feet



        The first is to use your feet for paddling. Birds such as grebes, loons and cormorants do this, and it can be very effective. It's beneficial as it allows their wings to be well adapted to flight while still being capably of swimming underwater. It also allows for a lot of manoeuvrability.



        The first tradeoff is that it's not quite as efficient as using wings so you rarely find it as a sole strategy among sea birds. It's more common among freshwater birds.



        The second tradeoff is that to make it more efficient for diving, you tend to need legs that are further and further back on your body. This makes it more and more awkward to walk on land (which is necessary at least for laying eggs). You can see this quite starkly in the extinct Hesperornis which was a sea-going bird that swam with its legs and was probably very ungainly on land.



        HesperornisHesperornis



        Swimming by generating lift with wings



        The second option is to swim using exactly the same mechanics as flight. Flapping wings produce lift and thrust in exactly the same way whether they're operating in air or water. This can be very efficient, and is how the majority of sea-going diving birds swim. However, there are some key differences.



        As air isn't very dense, to fly you want a wing that has quite a lot of surface area compared to the weight/area you're trying to move. Strength-wise, you can get away with this as the wing loadings aren't very high.



        Water, however, is much denser. For a given power-stroke, you will generate much more lift and thrust, and your wings will be under much higher strain. So, what you want for swimming is short, stubby but strongly built wings.



        What you get in diving birds is very often a compromise. Either they will have wings that are pretty well adapted for flying and their swimming ability suffers (shearwaters for instance), or they are very good at swimming but are not very efficient flyers (Puffins). Some pics to illustrate:



        Shearwater



        Puffin



        Puffins actually have some of the highest flight costs of any birds. Go far enough this way any you'll lose the ability to fly at all and become extremely efficient swimmers, like penguins.



        Some further considerations



        One of the other key issues with flight vs swimming is weight. In order to fly efficiently, you want to be as light as possible. In order to swim efficiently, you want to be as close to the density of water as possible. This is a big hurdle for any animal that wants to do both.



        Birds specifically have lungs that don't really inflate or deflate like ours do, so they are trying to dive with inflated air sacs inside them. Seabirds have some of the densest bones in the bird family, which helps counteract this buoyancy. Some also swallow stones for ballast.



        Feathers are also designed to trap air pockets inside them to increase their surface area for a given weight which is not what you want for diving. Diving birds with waterproof feathers often preen them before diving in order to drive out any trapped air, and some like cormorants don't have waterproof feathers which allows them to get waterlogged while diving and decrease their buoyancy (at the cost of having to dry them out in the sun before they can fly again).



        tl;dr All of this adds up to a set of tradeoffs where if you want to be a better swimmer, you will have to make sacrifices in efficiency for flying and/or walking.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        Absolutely, but there are some interesting physiological tradeoffs.



        Many birds also swim underwater, and there are broadly two techniques for doing so.



        Swimming with feet



        The first is to use your feet for paddling. Birds such as grebes, loons and cormorants do this, and it can be very effective. It's beneficial as it allows their wings to be well adapted to flight while still being capably of swimming underwater. It also allows for a lot of manoeuvrability.



        The first tradeoff is that it's not quite as efficient as using wings so you rarely find it as a sole strategy among sea birds. It's more common among freshwater birds.



        The second tradeoff is that to make it more efficient for diving, you tend to need legs that are further and further back on your body. This makes it more and more awkward to walk on land (which is necessary at least for laying eggs). You can see this quite starkly in the extinct Hesperornis which was a sea-going bird that swam with its legs and was probably very ungainly on land.



        HesperornisHesperornis



        Swimming by generating lift with wings



        The second option is to swim using exactly the same mechanics as flight. Flapping wings produce lift and thrust in exactly the same way whether they're operating in air or water. This can be very efficient, and is how the majority of sea-going diving birds swim. However, there are some key differences.



        As air isn't very dense, to fly you want a wing that has quite a lot of surface area compared to the weight/area you're trying to move. Strength-wise, you can get away with this as the wing loadings aren't very high.



        Water, however, is much denser. For a given power-stroke, you will generate much more lift and thrust, and your wings will be under much higher strain. So, what you want for swimming is short, stubby but strongly built wings.



        What you get in diving birds is very often a compromise. Either they will have wings that are pretty well adapted for flying and their swimming ability suffers (shearwaters for instance), or they are very good at swimming but are not very efficient flyers (Puffins). Some pics to illustrate:



        Shearwater



        Puffin



        Puffins actually have some of the highest flight costs of any birds. Go far enough this way any you'll lose the ability to fly at all and become extremely efficient swimmers, like penguins.



        Some further considerations



        One of the other key issues with flight vs swimming is weight. In order to fly efficiently, you want to be as light as possible. In order to swim efficiently, you want to be as close to the density of water as possible. This is a big hurdle for any animal that wants to do both.



        Birds specifically have lungs that don't really inflate or deflate like ours do, so they are trying to dive with inflated air sacs inside them. Seabirds have some of the densest bones in the bird family, which helps counteract this buoyancy. Some also swallow stones for ballast.



        Feathers are also designed to trap air pockets inside them to increase their surface area for a given weight which is not what you want for diving. Diving birds with waterproof feathers often preen them before diving in order to drive out any trapped air, and some like cormorants don't have waterproof feathers which allows them to get waterlogged while diving and decrease their buoyancy (at the cost of having to dry them out in the sun before they can fly again).



        tl;dr All of this adds up to a set of tradeoffs where if you want to be a better swimmer, you will have to make sacrifices in efficiency for flying and/or walking.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Apr 1 at 11:35









        YnneadwraithYnneadwraith

        5,86111730




        5,86111730





















            4












            $begingroup$

            Water is about 3 orders of magnitude denser than air.



            This means that, for a given profile and velocity, lift forces and drag will be as much as higher in water than in air.



            If you need to have lift in air you need a large surface, which would be too large in water. See penguins: their small wings work like a charm in water, but are totally useless to fly.



            Unless your dragon has a foldable membrane that can be deployed only in air, there is no way that water optimized find/wings can provide lift in air.



            This also answer your question: the water dragons can deploy an additional membrane to get lift when they venture in the air, an they keep the membrane unused when in water, to reduce drag.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$








            • 2




              $begingroup$
              Every dragon (and bird) already has a way to retract their "membrane", because they tuck their wing in on an upwards flap and extend it on a downwards flap when they are flying. The difference in surface area (and thus force exerted) is how they are able to gain altitude. The exact same principle applies underwater. This is used by humans (e.g. breaststroke: wide when pulling your arms back, narrow when pushing your ars forward) and birds who swim underwater (as per the other answers).
              $endgroup$
              – Flater
              Apr 1 at 12:45











            • $begingroup$
              Wings, arms and legs: folded; uses its elongated body with a protractable membrane vertically on its tail for swimming. Basically an eel with six appendages. Six of which only cause drag underwater, and four while in flight. And 2~4 required only for walking on land.
              $endgroup$
              – Mazura
              Apr 1 at 23:39















            4












            $begingroup$

            Water is about 3 orders of magnitude denser than air.



            This means that, for a given profile and velocity, lift forces and drag will be as much as higher in water than in air.



            If you need to have lift in air you need a large surface, which would be too large in water. See penguins: their small wings work like a charm in water, but are totally useless to fly.



            Unless your dragon has a foldable membrane that can be deployed only in air, there is no way that water optimized find/wings can provide lift in air.



            This also answer your question: the water dragons can deploy an additional membrane to get lift when they venture in the air, an they keep the membrane unused when in water, to reduce drag.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$








            • 2




              $begingroup$
              Every dragon (and bird) already has a way to retract their "membrane", because they tuck their wing in on an upwards flap and extend it on a downwards flap when they are flying. The difference in surface area (and thus force exerted) is how they are able to gain altitude. The exact same principle applies underwater. This is used by humans (e.g. breaststroke: wide when pulling your arms back, narrow when pushing your ars forward) and birds who swim underwater (as per the other answers).
              $endgroup$
              – Flater
              Apr 1 at 12:45











            • $begingroup$
              Wings, arms and legs: folded; uses its elongated body with a protractable membrane vertically on its tail for swimming. Basically an eel with six appendages. Six of which only cause drag underwater, and four while in flight. And 2~4 required only for walking on land.
              $endgroup$
              – Mazura
              Apr 1 at 23:39













            4












            4








            4





            $begingroup$

            Water is about 3 orders of magnitude denser than air.



            This means that, for a given profile and velocity, lift forces and drag will be as much as higher in water than in air.



            If you need to have lift in air you need a large surface, which would be too large in water. See penguins: their small wings work like a charm in water, but are totally useless to fly.



            Unless your dragon has a foldable membrane that can be deployed only in air, there is no way that water optimized find/wings can provide lift in air.



            This also answer your question: the water dragons can deploy an additional membrane to get lift when they venture in the air, an they keep the membrane unused when in water, to reduce drag.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            Water is about 3 orders of magnitude denser than air.



            This means that, for a given profile and velocity, lift forces and drag will be as much as higher in water than in air.



            If you need to have lift in air you need a large surface, which would be too large in water. See penguins: their small wings work like a charm in water, but are totally useless to fly.



            Unless your dragon has a foldable membrane that can be deployed only in air, there is no way that water optimized find/wings can provide lift in air.



            This also answer your question: the water dragons can deploy an additional membrane to get lift when they venture in the air, an they keep the membrane unused when in water, to reduce drag.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Apr 1 at 7:01









            L.DutchL.Dutch

            91.7k29212441




            91.7k29212441







            • 2




              $begingroup$
              Every dragon (and bird) already has a way to retract their "membrane", because they tuck their wing in on an upwards flap and extend it on a downwards flap when they are flying. The difference in surface area (and thus force exerted) is how they are able to gain altitude. The exact same principle applies underwater. This is used by humans (e.g. breaststroke: wide when pulling your arms back, narrow when pushing your ars forward) and birds who swim underwater (as per the other answers).
              $endgroup$
              – Flater
              Apr 1 at 12:45











            • $begingroup$
              Wings, arms and legs: folded; uses its elongated body with a protractable membrane vertically on its tail for swimming. Basically an eel with six appendages. Six of which only cause drag underwater, and four while in flight. And 2~4 required only for walking on land.
              $endgroup$
              – Mazura
              Apr 1 at 23:39












            • 2




              $begingroup$
              Every dragon (and bird) already has a way to retract their "membrane", because they tuck their wing in on an upwards flap and extend it on a downwards flap when they are flying. The difference in surface area (and thus force exerted) is how they are able to gain altitude. The exact same principle applies underwater. This is used by humans (e.g. breaststroke: wide when pulling your arms back, narrow when pushing your ars forward) and birds who swim underwater (as per the other answers).
              $endgroup$
              – Flater
              Apr 1 at 12:45











            • $begingroup$
              Wings, arms and legs: folded; uses its elongated body with a protractable membrane vertically on its tail for swimming. Basically an eel with six appendages. Six of which only cause drag underwater, and four while in flight. And 2~4 required only for walking on land.
              $endgroup$
              – Mazura
              Apr 1 at 23:39







            2




            2




            $begingroup$
            Every dragon (and bird) already has a way to retract their "membrane", because they tuck their wing in on an upwards flap and extend it on a downwards flap when they are flying. The difference in surface area (and thus force exerted) is how they are able to gain altitude. The exact same principle applies underwater. This is used by humans (e.g. breaststroke: wide when pulling your arms back, narrow when pushing your ars forward) and birds who swim underwater (as per the other answers).
            $endgroup$
            – Flater
            Apr 1 at 12:45





            $begingroup$
            Every dragon (and bird) already has a way to retract their "membrane", because they tuck their wing in on an upwards flap and extend it on a downwards flap when they are flying. The difference in surface area (and thus force exerted) is how they are able to gain altitude. The exact same principle applies underwater. This is used by humans (e.g. breaststroke: wide when pulling your arms back, narrow when pushing your ars forward) and birds who swim underwater (as per the other answers).
            $endgroup$
            – Flater
            Apr 1 at 12:45













            $begingroup$
            Wings, arms and legs: folded; uses its elongated body with a protractable membrane vertically on its tail for swimming. Basically an eel with six appendages. Six of which only cause drag underwater, and four while in flight. And 2~4 required only for walking on land.
            $endgroup$
            – Mazura
            Apr 1 at 23:39




            $begingroup$
            Wings, arms and legs: folded; uses its elongated body with a protractable membrane vertically on its tail for swimming. Basically an eel with six appendages. Six of which only cause drag underwater, and four while in flight. And 2~4 required only for walking on land.
            $endgroup$
            – Mazura
            Apr 1 at 23:39











            4












            $begingroup$

            If fish can have fins that allow for flight, so can your dragon.



            I believe I can flyyyy...



            Just don't expect to be able to ride one in flight, or to see it going on for more than a couple hundred meters at a time.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              There are of course other options for primarily aquatic animals who'd like to fly... water jets! blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/02/20/…
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              Apr 1 at 12:17










            • $begingroup$
              Since your answer is built on "flying fish can do it", it is relevant to consider that flying fish glide, they don't fly. They are limited by whatever force they can muster when they jump out of the water, and then they just coast until they land.
              $endgroup$
              – Flater
              Apr 1 at 12:47







            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @Flater I guess it also depends on the OP's definition of "flying" for the water dragons. If OP just needs short bursts of movement through air without fancy maneuvers or sustained flight, jump-and-glide could very well serve the purpose
              $endgroup$
              – Delioth
              Apr 1 at 14:03










            • $begingroup$
              @Delioth: Keep mind of the square cube law though. Surface area of the wing is a square, but a dragon's mass is a cube. When you scale the flying fish, you will reach a point where the wings won't properly glide anymore even though they may have the same relative size to the dragon's body as is the case for the flying fish.
              $endgroup$
              – Flater
              Apr 1 at 14:15







            • 2




              $begingroup$
              What about steam powered jets, assuming these are fire-breathing dragons? Ingest water, add fire, expel as steam for initial propulsion
              $endgroup$
              – Mick O'Hea
              Apr 1 at 15:08















            4












            $begingroup$

            If fish can have fins that allow for flight, so can your dragon.



            I believe I can flyyyy...



            Just don't expect to be able to ride one in flight, or to see it going on for more than a couple hundred meters at a time.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              There are of course other options for primarily aquatic animals who'd like to fly... water jets! blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/02/20/…
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              Apr 1 at 12:17










            • $begingroup$
              Since your answer is built on "flying fish can do it", it is relevant to consider that flying fish glide, they don't fly. They are limited by whatever force they can muster when they jump out of the water, and then they just coast until they land.
              $endgroup$
              – Flater
              Apr 1 at 12:47







            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @Flater I guess it also depends on the OP's definition of "flying" for the water dragons. If OP just needs short bursts of movement through air without fancy maneuvers or sustained flight, jump-and-glide could very well serve the purpose
              $endgroup$
              – Delioth
              Apr 1 at 14:03










            • $begingroup$
              @Delioth: Keep mind of the square cube law though. Surface area of the wing is a square, but a dragon's mass is a cube. When you scale the flying fish, you will reach a point where the wings won't properly glide anymore even though they may have the same relative size to the dragon's body as is the case for the flying fish.
              $endgroup$
              – Flater
              Apr 1 at 14:15







            • 2




              $begingroup$
              What about steam powered jets, assuming these are fire-breathing dragons? Ingest water, add fire, expel as steam for initial propulsion
              $endgroup$
              – Mick O'Hea
              Apr 1 at 15:08













            4












            4








            4





            $begingroup$

            If fish can have fins that allow for flight, so can your dragon.



            I believe I can flyyyy...



            Just don't expect to be able to ride one in flight, or to see it going on for more than a couple hundred meters at a time.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            If fish can have fins that allow for flight, so can your dragon.



            I believe I can flyyyy...



            Just don't expect to be able to ride one in flight, or to see it going on for more than a couple hundred meters at a time.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Apr 1 at 10:42









            RenanRenan

            53.1k15120266




            53.1k15120266











            • $begingroup$
              There are of course other options for primarily aquatic animals who'd like to fly... water jets! blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/02/20/…
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              Apr 1 at 12:17










            • $begingroup$
              Since your answer is built on "flying fish can do it", it is relevant to consider that flying fish glide, they don't fly. They are limited by whatever force they can muster when they jump out of the water, and then they just coast until they land.
              $endgroup$
              – Flater
              Apr 1 at 12:47







            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @Flater I guess it also depends on the OP's definition of "flying" for the water dragons. If OP just needs short bursts of movement through air without fancy maneuvers or sustained flight, jump-and-glide could very well serve the purpose
              $endgroup$
              – Delioth
              Apr 1 at 14:03










            • $begingroup$
              @Delioth: Keep mind of the square cube law though. Surface area of the wing is a square, but a dragon's mass is a cube. When you scale the flying fish, you will reach a point where the wings won't properly glide anymore even though they may have the same relative size to the dragon's body as is the case for the flying fish.
              $endgroup$
              – Flater
              Apr 1 at 14:15







            • 2




              $begingroup$
              What about steam powered jets, assuming these are fire-breathing dragons? Ingest water, add fire, expel as steam for initial propulsion
              $endgroup$
              – Mick O'Hea
              Apr 1 at 15:08
















            • $begingroup$
              There are of course other options for primarily aquatic animals who'd like to fly... water jets! blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/02/20/…
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              Apr 1 at 12:17










            • $begingroup$
              Since your answer is built on "flying fish can do it", it is relevant to consider that flying fish glide, they don't fly. They are limited by whatever force they can muster when they jump out of the water, and then they just coast until they land.
              $endgroup$
              – Flater
              Apr 1 at 12:47







            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @Flater I guess it also depends on the OP's definition of "flying" for the water dragons. If OP just needs short bursts of movement through air without fancy maneuvers or sustained flight, jump-and-glide could very well serve the purpose
              $endgroup$
              – Delioth
              Apr 1 at 14:03










            • $begingroup$
              @Delioth: Keep mind of the square cube law though. Surface area of the wing is a square, but a dragon's mass is a cube. When you scale the flying fish, you will reach a point where the wings won't properly glide anymore even though they may have the same relative size to the dragon's body as is the case for the flying fish.
              $endgroup$
              – Flater
              Apr 1 at 14:15







            • 2




              $begingroup$
              What about steam powered jets, assuming these are fire-breathing dragons? Ingest water, add fire, expel as steam for initial propulsion
              $endgroup$
              – Mick O'Hea
              Apr 1 at 15:08















            $begingroup$
            There are of course other options for primarily aquatic animals who'd like to fly... water jets! blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/02/20/…
            $endgroup$
            – Starfish Prime
            Apr 1 at 12:17




            $begingroup$
            There are of course other options for primarily aquatic animals who'd like to fly... water jets! blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/02/20/…
            $endgroup$
            – Starfish Prime
            Apr 1 at 12:17












            $begingroup$
            Since your answer is built on "flying fish can do it", it is relevant to consider that flying fish glide, they don't fly. They are limited by whatever force they can muster when they jump out of the water, and then they just coast until they land.
            $endgroup$
            – Flater
            Apr 1 at 12:47





            $begingroup$
            Since your answer is built on "flying fish can do it", it is relevant to consider that flying fish glide, they don't fly. They are limited by whatever force they can muster when they jump out of the water, and then they just coast until they land.
            $endgroup$
            – Flater
            Apr 1 at 12:47





            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            @Flater I guess it also depends on the OP's definition of "flying" for the water dragons. If OP just needs short bursts of movement through air without fancy maneuvers or sustained flight, jump-and-glide could very well serve the purpose
            $endgroup$
            – Delioth
            Apr 1 at 14:03




            $begingroup$
            @Flater I guess it also depends on the OP's definition of "flying" for the water dragons. If OP just needs short bursts of movement through air without fancy maneuvers or sustained flight, jump-and-glide could very well serve the purpose
            $endgroup$
            – Delioth
            Apr 1 at 14:03












            $begingroup$
            @Delioth: Keep mind of the square cube law though. Surface area of the wing is a square, but a dragon's mass is a cube. When you scale the flying fish, you will reach a point where the wings won't properly glide anymore even though they may have the same relative size to the dragon's body as is the case for the flying fish.
            $endgroup$
            – Flater
            Apr 1 at 14:15





            $begingroup$
            @Delioth: Keep mind of the square cube law though. Surface area of the wing is a square, but a dragon's mass is a cube. When you scale the flying fish, you will reach a point where the wings won't properly glide anymore even though they may have the same relative size to the dragon's body as is the case for the flying fish.
            $endgroup$
            – Flater
            Apr 1 at 14:15





            2




            2




            $begingroup$
            What about steam powered jets, assuming these are fire-breathing dragons? Ingest water, add fire, expel as steam for initial propulsion
            $endgroup$
            – Mick O'Hea
            Apr 1 at 15:08




            $begingroup$
            What about steam powered jets, assuming these are fire-breathing dragons? Ingest water, add fire, expel as steam for initial propulsion
            $endgroup$
            – Mick O'Hea
            Apr 1 at 15:08

















            draft saved

            draft discarded
















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Worldbuilding Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f142896%2fcould-a-dragon-use-its-wings-to-swim%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Boston (Lincolnshire) Stedsbyld | Berne yn Boston | NavigaasjemenuBoston Borough CouncilBoston, Lincolnshire

            Ballerup Komuun Stääden an saarpen | Futnuuten | Luke uk diar | Nawigatsjuunwww.ballerup.dkwww.statistikbanken.dk: Tabelle BEF44 (Folketal pr. 1. januar fordelt på byer)Commonskategorii: Ballerup Komuun55° 44′ N, 12° 22′ O

            Serbia Índice Etimología Historia Geografía Entorno natural División administrativa Política Demografía Economía Cultura Deportes Véase también Notas Referencias Bibliografía Enlaces externos Menú de navegación44°49′00″N 20°28′00″E / 44.816666666667, 20.46666666666744°49′00″N 20°28′00″E / 44.816666666667, 20.466666666667U.S. Department of Commerce (2015)«Informe sobre Desarrollo Humano 2018»Kosovo-Metohija.Neutralna Srbija u NATO okruzenju.The SerbsTheories on the Origin of the Serbs.Serbia.Earls: Webster's Quotations, Facts and Phrases.Egeo y Balcanes.Kalemegdan.Southern Pannonia during the age of the Great Migrations.Culture in Serbia.History.The Serbian Origin of the Montenegrins.Nemanjics' period (1186-1353).Stefan Uros (1355-1371).Serbian medieval history.Habsburg–Ottoman Wars (1525–1718).The Ottoman Empire, 1700-1922.The First Serbian Uprising.Miloš, prince of Serbia.3. Bosnia-Hercegovina and the Congress of Berlin.The Balkan Wars and the Partition of Macedonia.The Falcon and the Eagle: Montenegro and Austria-Hungary, 1908-1914.Typhus fever on the eastern front in World War I.Anniversary of WWI battle marked in Serbia.La derrota austriaca en los Balcanes. Fin del Imperio Austro-Húngaro.Imperio austriaco y Reino de Hungría.Los tiempos modernos: del capitalismo a la globalización, siglos XVII al XXI.The period of Croatia within ex-Yugoslavia.Yugoslavia: Much in a Name.Las dictaduras europeas.Croacia: mito y realidad."Crods ask arms".Prólogo a la invasión.La campaña de los Balcanes.La resistencia en Yugoslavia.Jasenovac Research Institute.Día en memoria de las víctimas del genocidio en la Segunda Guerra Mundial.El infierno estuvo en Jasenovac.Croacia empieza a «desenterrar» a sus muertos de Jasenovac.World fascism: a historical encyclopedia, Volumen 1.Tito. Josip Broz.El nuevo orden y la resistencia.La conquista del poder.Algunos aspectos de la economía yugoslava a mediados de 1962.Albania-Kosovo crisis.De Kosovo a Kosova: una visión demográfica.La crisis de la economía yugoslava y la política de "estabilización".Milosevic: el poder de un absolutista."Serbia under Milošević: politics in the 1990s"Milosevic cavó en Kosovo la tumba de la antigua Yugoslavia.La ONU exculpa a Serbia de genocidio en la guerra de Bosnia.Slobodan Milosevic, el burócrata que supo usar el odio.Es la fuerza contra el sufrimiento de muchos inocentes.Matanza de civiles al bombardear la OTAN un puente mientras pasaba un tren.Las consecuencias negativas de los bombardeos de Yugoslavia se sentirán aún durante largo tiempo.Kostunica advierte que la misión de Europa en Kosovo es ilegal.Las 24 horas más largas en la vida de Slobodan Milosevic.Serbia declara la guerra a la mafia por matar a Djindjic.Tadic presentará "quizás en diciembre" la solicitud de entrada en la UE.Montenegro declara su independencia de Serbia.Serbia se declara estado soberano tras separación de Montenegro.«Accordance with International Law of the Unilateral Declaration of Independence by the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government of Kosovo (Request for Advisory Opinion)»Mladic pasa por el médico antes de la audiencia para extraditarloDatos de Serbia y Kosovo.The Carpathian Mountains.Position, Relief, Climate.Transport.Finding birds in Serbia.U Srbiji do 2010. godine 10% teritorije nacionalni parkovi.Geography.Serbia: Climate.Variability of Climate In Serbia In The Second Half of The 20thc Entury.BASIC CLIMATE CHARACTERISTICS FOR THE TERRITORY OF SERBIA.Fauna y flora: Serbia.Serbia and Montenegro.Información general sobre Serbia.Republic of Serbia Environmental Protection Agency (SEPA).Serbia recycling 15% of waste.Reform process of the Serbian energy sector.20-MW Wind Project Being Developed in Serbia.Las Naciones Unidas. Paz para Kosovo.Aniversario sin fiesta.Population by national or ethnic groups by Census 2002.Article 7. Coat of arms, flag and national anthem.Serbia, flag of.Historia.«Serbia and Montenegro in Pictures»Serbia.Serbia aprueba su nueva Constitución con un apoyo de más del 50%.Serbia. Population.«El nacionalista Nikolic gana las elecciones presidenciales en Serbia»El europeísta Borís Tadic gana la segunda vuelta de las presidenciales serbias.Aleksandar Vucic, de ultranacionalista serbio a fervoroso europeístaKostunica condena la declaración del "falso estado" de Kosovo.Comienza el debate sobre la independencia de Kosovo en el TIJ.La Corte Internacional de Justicia dice que Kosovo no violó el derecho internacional al declarar su independenciaKosovo: Enviado de la ONU advierte tensiones y fragilidad.«Bruselas recomienda negociar la adhesión de Serbia tras el acuerdo sobre Kosovo»Monografía de Serbia.Bez smanjivanja Vojske Srbije.Military statistics Serbia and Montenegro.Šutanovac: Vojni budžet za 2009. godinu 70 milijardi dinara.Serbia-Montenegro shortens obligatory military service to six months.No hay justicia para las víctimas de los bombardeos de la OTAN.Zapatero reitera la negativa de España a reconocer la independencia de Kosovo.Anniversary of the signing of the Stabilisation and Association Agreement.Detenido en Serbia Radovan Karadzic, el criminal de guerra más buscado de Europa."Serbia presentará su candidatura de acceso a la UE antes de fin de año".Serbia solicita la adhesión a la UE.Detenido el exgeneral serbobosnio Ratko Mladic, principal acusado del genocidio en los Balcanes«Lista de todos los Estados Miembros de las Naciones Unidas que son parte o signatarios en los diversos instrumentos de derechos humanos de las Naciones Unidas»versión pdfProtocolo Facultativo de la Convención sobre la Eliminación de todas las Formas de Discriminación contra la MujerConvención contra la tortura y otros tratos o penas crueles, inhumanos o degradantesversión pdfProtocolo Facultativo de la Convención sobre los Derechos de las Personas con DiscapacidadEl ACNUR recibe con beneplácito el envío de tropas de la OTAN a Kosovo y se prepara ante una posible llegada de refugiados a Serbia.Kosovo.- El jefe de la Minuk denuncia que los serbios boicotearon las legislativas por 'presiones'.Bosnia and Herzegovina. Population.Datos básicos de Montenegro, historia y evolución política.Serbia y Montenegro. Indicador: Tasa global de fecundidad (por 1000 habitantes).Serbia y Montenegro. Indicador: Tasa bruta de mortalidad (por 1000 habitantes).Population.Falleció el patriarca de la Iglesia Ortodoxa serbia.Atacan en Kosovo autobuses con peregrinos tras la investidura del patriarca serbio IrinejSerbian in Hungary.Tasas de cambio."Kosovo es de todos sus ciudadanos".Report for Serbia.Country groups by income.GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT (GDP) OF THE REPUBLIC OF SERBIA 1997–2007.Economic Trends in the Republic of Serbia 2006.National Accounts Statitics.Саопштења за јавност.GDP per inhabitant varied by one to six across the EU27 Member States.Un pacto de estabilidad para Serbia.Unemployment rate rises in Serbia.Serbia, Belarus agree free trade to woo investors.Serbia, Turkey call investors to Serbia.Success Stories.U.S. Private Investment in Serbia and Montenegro.Positive trend.Banks in Serbia.La Cámara de Comercio acompaña a empresas madrileñas a Serbia y Croacia.Serbia Industries.Energy and mining.Agriculture.Late crops, fruit and grapes output, 2008.Rebranding Serbia: A Hobby Shortly to Become a Full-Time Job.Final data on livestock statistics, 2008.Serbian cell-phone users.U Srbiji sve više računara.Телекомуникације.U Srbiji 27 odsto gradjana koristi Internet.Serbia and Montenegro.Тренд гледаности програма РТС-а у 2008. и 2009.години.Serbian railways.General Terms.El mercado del transporte aéreo en Serbia.Statistics.Vehículos de motor registrados.Planes ambiciosos para el transporte fluvial.Turismo.Turistički promet u Republici Srbiji u periodu januar-novembar 2007. godine.Your Guide to Culture.Novi Sad - city of culture.Nis - european crossroads.Serbia. Properties inscribed on the World Heritage List .Stari Ras and Sopoćani.Studenica Monastery.Medieval Monuments in Kosovo.Gamzigrad-Romuliana, Palace of Galerius.Skiing and snowboarding in Kopaonik.Tara.New7Wonders of Nature Finalists.Pilgrimage of Saint Sava.Exit Festival: Best european festival.Banje u Srbiji.«The Encyclopedia of world history»Culture.Centenario del arte serbio.«Djordje Andrejevic Kun: el único pintor de los brigadistas yugoslavos de la guerra civil española»About the museum.The collections.Miroslav Gospel – Manuscript from 1180.Historicity in the Serbo-Croatian Heroic Epic.Culture and Sport.Conversación con el rector del Seminario San Sava.'Reina Margot' funde drama, historia y gesto con música de Goran Bregovic.Serbia gana Eurovisión y España decepciona de nuevo con un vigésimo puesto.Home.Story.Emir Kusturica.Tercer oro para Paskaljevic.Nikola Tesla Year.Home.Tesla, un genio tomado por loco.Aniversario de la muerte de Nikola Tesla.El Museo Nikola Tesla en Belgrado.El inventor del mundo actual.República de Serbia.University of Belgrade official statistics.University of Novi Sad.University of Kragujevac.University of Nis.Comida. Cocina serbia.Cooking.Montenegro se convertirá en el miembro 204 del movimiento olímpico.España, campeona de Europa de baloncesto.El Partizan de Belgrado se corona campeón por octava vez consecutiva.Serbia se clasifica para el Mundial de 2010 de Sudáfrica.Serbia Name Squad For Northern Ireland And South Korea Tests.Fútbol.- El Partizán de Belgrado se proclama campeón de la Liga serbia.Clasificacion final Mundial de balonmano Croacia 2009.Serbia vence a España y se consagra campeón mundial de waterpolo.Novak Djokovic no convence pero gana en Australia.Gana Ana Ivanovic el Roland Garros.Serena Williams gana el US Open por tercera vez.Biography.Bradt Travel Guide SerbiaThe Encyclopedia of World War IGobierno de SerbiaPortal del Gobierno de SerbiaPresidencia de SerbiaAsamblea Nacional SerbiaMinisterio de Asuntos exteriores de SerbiaBanco Nacional de SerbiaAgencia Serbia para la Promoción de la Inversión y la ExportaciónOficina de Estadísticas de SerbiaCIA. Factbook 2008Organización nacional de turismo de SerbiaDiscover SerbiaConoce SerbiaNoticias de SerbiaSerbiaWorldCat1512028760000 0000 9526 67094054598-2n8519591900570825ge1309191004530741010url17413117006669D055771Serbia